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Old 10-12-2018, 11:28 AM   #151
The Wyzard
 
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Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
And that really doesn't bother you guys?
I'm not personally a fan of it. If I was running the game myself, I'd probably house rule advancement in some way. I'm not sure exactly how. There's a few different ways to do it that I can think of, I'd just have to pick one. I don't expect that the rules in the book are going to change dramatically between here and the final version, so I just don't get fussed about it.
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:37 PM   #152
Helborn
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Actually, I have become a fan of the system as is. I've been running a few newbies and this allows them to fix a charcter to their style of play quickly without really unbalancing the game early on. Add a ST or DX point or both or add the IQ and a Talent that fits their style of play without starting a new character.

People get invested in a starting character in a new game if, instead of just playing in an arena, they actually put together a background and start in some podunk village before going to the city to seek their fortune.

28 and 30 point bandits can give them a run for their money immediately and teach mechanics without being too threatening.

To run something simple like the Caves of Chaos can be a wipe out with just a few unlucky rolls unless the characters are a little more experienced.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:07 PM   #153
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Actually, I have become a fan of the system as is. I've been running a few newbies and this allows them to fix a charcter to their style of play quickly without really unbalancing the game early on. Add a ST or DX point or both or add the IQ and a Talent that fits their style of play without starting a new...
But how is this any different from the original rules? I would argue that the previous version of XP advancement was even more conducive to player engagement and character customization.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:11 PM   #154
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
Actually, I have become a fan of the system as is. I've been running a few newbies and this allows them to fix a charcter to their style of play quickly without really unbalancing the game early on. Add a ST or DX point or both or add the IQ and a Talent that fits their style of play without starting a new character.

People get invested in a starting character in a new game if, instead of just playing in an arena, they actually put together a background and start in some podunk village before going to the city to seek their fortune.

28 and 30 point bandits can give them a run for their money immediately and teach mechanics without being too threatening.

To run something simple like the Caves of Chaos can be a wipe out with just a few unlucky rolls unless the characters are a little more experienced.
Are you allowing the increases in IQ alone to give the characters another Talent? Or did you mean they are buying IQ and buying a Talent separately?

(I am just curious. Not trying to beat dead-horse arguments.)
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:20 PM   #155
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Adding something from another thread that I figured would be relevant here as well...

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I like most of the intentions of the character improvement changes, e.g.:

* Reduced "all my stats are great" characters.
* Reduced "I am superhuman" characters.
* Less difference in attributes between the most experienced characters and typical NPCs and starting characters.
* Improvement in talents/spells via XP rather than just attributes.
* Other things you could do with XP besides forever increasing attributes.

But I'm concerned with many of the details:

* Speeding through the fun/tense/challenging lower attribute ranges at 100-200 XP per point.
* XP awards not based on needing to take more risks to earn more XP, combined with the low XP costs for the first 3-4 attributes, offers a clear temptation to do as much danger avoidance as possible and advance to be 35-36 point characters anyway. It could almost seem foolish and unnecessary to try to do anything particularly dangerous until you get to 35-36 points, since it will happen just by showing up for enough sessions.
* The doubling curve gets prohibitive at the high end... seems like a smoother curve that's a bit less ridiculous at the top but a bit more expensive lower would work better.
* The 500 XP fixed cost per talent point is no good as the only way anyone learns any talent, in a system where the supposed average point total is 30 points and attribute gains there cost only 100 XP.
* The 500 XP cost for talent points (and staff spell level upgrades) combined with no other way to learn talents AND free talents on creation gives a huge incentive to take as much IQ as you will want and can get away with at start, and a huge penalty for not doing so. This greatly messes with the previous balance of varied wizard creation choices.
* It no longer feels to me like the character improvement system is meant to be used as a guideline for NPCs and what populations are like.
* The XP system seems only tuned for 32-points and breaks down for giants, reptile men and gargoyles, and a bit for halflings or hobgoblins.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...=157782&page=6
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Old 10-13-2018, 10:01 PM   #156
Helborn
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

Had a game earlier today (DT1) One of the characters died (34 point character) But, he died in the Brown room. Potion of Revival. Lost 5 points of ST. He's now a 29 point Character. He earned 213 XP. He also had another 93 XP, total 306. He now gets 3 points back and is a 32 point character with 6 XP. His ST is still 2 points below what it was, but he'll get it back with only another 200 XP (or 194) rather than a longer wait and further inequality between him and his group.

I like this new system. I know my player does.
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Old 10-16-2018, 07:01 PM   #157
bill_seney
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
The new rules do seem to say that ALL talents/spells learned (or even upgraded, per recent post from SJ) cost 500 XP per point, regardless of IQ vs. talents/spells known.

<snip>

Also I think something is needed for NPCs, so it doesn't seem like it just makes sense in the system that you could train an average person ride a horse, or raise their ST/DX/IQ by several points for the same amount of effort. It undermines the whole "people average 30 points" idea.
I would suggest that since most NPCs do not go adventuring that a house rule where success on the job risk roll allows the addition of 1 IQ point of job related talent would cover this. Rolling weekly a 3 on 3d6 will occur about every 4 years, so over a career an NPC could reasonably hope to gain a fair range of talents.
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:03 AM   #158
Skarg
 
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Default Re: IQ rise and talents

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Originally Posted by bill_seney View Post
I would suggest that since most NPCs do not go adventuring that a house rule where success on the job risk roll allows the addition of 1 IQ point of job related talent would cover this. Rolling weekly a 3 on 3d6 will occur about every 4 years, so over a career an NPC could reasonably hope to gain a fair range of talents.
Ok, sure, for those folks.

How about situations such as:

Four new wizard apprentices have arrived from the countryside, but none of them know the Aid spell so we need them to learn that... how long can we expect that to take? (The old Advanced Wizard had very detailed answers for that depending on whether they studied alone with a book, had a teacher, were picking up spells while assisting a wizard, or were receiving intensive guild training. But new GMs either won't know about that, or would need to dig up that book, or invent something... but what will they invent, given that a PC would apparently need 500 XP?)

212 of the new recruits don't know one or more of the talents our troops need to have: particularly Pole Weapons and Shield. How long is it going to take to train them? What should that take to accomplish?

Also, Klemvo from Special Forces points out that some of them have some other weapon talents, and he feels based on his experience with skill development, that if it's a matter of 1500 XP to teach those three talents, he'd like to have some of the guys who already know a weapon talent and just dump that XP that's apparently available into attributes. That's how it works for PCs, anyway... right?

Or, an NPC wizard (such as is mentioned in a published adventure module) has high IQ and many spells and access to books and wants to spend time studying magic and learning new spells, by sitting and studying them. How long is that going to take to let him learn a new spell?
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