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Old 10-06-2018, 08:21 AM   #1
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

After (nearly) completing my read through of the ITL draft and screen, I'm confused about two distinctions between hero's and wizards:

1) The screen specifies that wizards suffer a -4 DX penalty when attacking with weapons other than their staff or a dagger. This makes some sense in the simpler Wizard board game because it lacks the concept of talents, but I didn't expect to see it carried over to ITL. Are we supposed to imagine that a wizard who has the Sword talent attacks with a -4 DX adjustment? And therefore that a wizard without the Sword talent attacks with one on 4 dice and a -4 DX adjustment? And what about attacks with the fist, a club or a torch - all things that can be used without a talent with no penalty by anyone? Those are neither a staff nor a dagger, so according to the screen wizards use them with a penalty.

2) As far as I can tell, heroes who know spells cast them without a penalty. So, simpler than the discussion above, but also (I think) different from the original game. I prefer the new version (and always did this in my house rules anyway).

So, is the modifier on the screen just a left over that should be ignored? Should it be used, but the intent is different from my literal reading of what it says? Is the intent exactly what I read into it? Did I miss something about spells casting and actually heroes still retain their old penalty? Thanks to anyone who has some answers!
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:22 AM   #2
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

yes absolutely something I will house rule if I ever actually get to play a game.

I will do somethng like "The first talent you pick sets the tone for the path your character takes, either done the path of weapons or spells..."
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Old 10-06-2018, 09:23 AM   #3
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

I'm not sure what you mean by that.
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Old 10-06-2018, 10:41 AM   #4
Shadekeep
 
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Aerlith
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
1) The screen specifies that wizards suffer a -4 DX penalty when attacking with weapons other than their staff or a dagger. This makes some sense in the simpler Wizard board game because it lacks the concept of talents, but I didn't expect to see it carried over to ITL. Are we supposed to imagine that a wizard who has the Sword talent attacks with a -4 DX adjustment? And therefore that a wizard without the Sword talent attacks with one on 4 dice and a -4 DX adjustment? And what about attacks with the fist, a club or a torch - all things that can be used without a talent with no penalty by anyone? Those are neither a staff nor a dagger, so according to the screen wizards use them with a penalty.
I would say the penalty remains, with the proviso that it is erased if the wizard learns Weapon Expertise in that weapon. And if they learn Weapon Mastery, they unlock the Weapon Expertise bonuses as a wizard. This allows wizards to actually become acceptably proficient, but never as much as a hero. Likewise, Unarmed Combat levels would erase the HTH penalty for wizards, with each level again acting as the corresponding lower level in terms of bonuses. (So a wizard with UC III acts as a hero with UC II. A wizard with UC I gets no benefits, apart from removing the -4 HTH modifier for wizards.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
2) As far as I can tell, heroes who know spells cast them without a penalty. So, simpler than the discussion above, but also (I think) different from the original game. I prefer the new version (and always did this in my house rules anyway).
That seems acceptable, especially as heroes pay triple costs to acquire spells. And the guide does suggest that they get more adverse effects when they botch a spell than when a wizard does, so spellcasting is still pricey and somewhat risky for the non-mage.
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:03 AM   #5
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
I think he misunderstood you. Not sure how though. He seems to be talking about erasing the arbitrary distinction between Hero and Wizard and letting those initial talent/spell choices determine if a character is a Hero or Wizard...I guess?

Anyway, back on topic...Yes, I noticed that -4 DX for Wizards with anything other than his staff or a dagger from Day One. It is one of the reasons why I was more open than most (but not really) to the power of the earlier version of the Wizard Staff. My plan: Ignore it in ITL.
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:09 AM   #6
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

Sorry, I'm just not good at this

I mean I would probably erase all hard distinctions between a Wizard and a Warrior, because as far as I'm concerned the balance, rules wise, is built into the character's limited number of talent/spell choices

If you want to be "good" at being a warrior, you should not learn many spells, and if you want to be "good" at being a wizard, you probably shouldn't learn many weapon talents
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:40 AM   #7
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

Yes, clearly the Wizards restriction is a carry-over from Wizard in which there were no Talents. The restriction is unnecessary in ITL beacause anyone without a relevant weapon Talent suffers a penalty and Wizards pay double for such Talents so they are already penalised. If a Wizard chooses to buy a weapon Talent, he should suffer no DX penalty.
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Old 10-06-2018, 11:59 AM   #8
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

Personally, I think it is just a rule that means something in Wizard but doesn't belong in ITL. There is already a penalty for not having weapon talents, and wizards already have a disincentive to learn them (double cost). Plus it makes no sense to me the penalty would be set aside for a dagger but not for a club or fist or thrown rock. So, all in all I would call this a poorly considered rule that should be ignored. And, by ignoring it, you end up in a situation that is simpler and sort of symmetric with the proposed treatment of heroes who have learned spells.
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Old 10-06-2018, 03:35 PM   #9
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Questions about the Wizard/Hero divide

A) The -4 wizard weapon penalty on the screen is a typo and one of the first things I reported in second wave errata. It is a clear error. It comes from basic Wizard, where it applies because there are no weapon talents for Wizards to learn in basic Wizard. i.e. it is just the penalty for anyone trying to use a weapon you don't have a talent for. There is no attack penalty for a wizard to use a weapon they have the talent for (but it does cost them double to learn that talent).

B) Yes, it's one of the rules silently removed from the new ITL. Often people forgot and/or complained about the -4 for casting spells when not a wizard. (Myself I have mixed feelings, but it's a matter of taste/preference. I would just recommend people consider the effect on how easy it is to have non-wizards casting certain spells. e.g. We had many NPC non-wizard apprentices in our TFT games even with the -4 penalty, mainly to get more Aid ST, and without the -4, it makes them just as effective at that (or other single spells) as wizards.)
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