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Old 09-28-2018, 05:58 PM   #1
hcobb
 
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Default A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

If I'm reading Melee p20 (not p18 as it says on p7) and ITL p117 correctly, you can't defend with a shield. Right?
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Old 09-28-2018, 06:36 PM   #2
Shostak
 
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

The wording on ITL 117 does specify a ready weapon, but, since you can attack with a shield (shield rush), it would be reasonable to treat one as a weapon for the purpose of defending (especially since that is what you actually do with a shield). It could easily be made unambiguous one way or the other with a tiny edit.

I've always allowed someone with a shield to defend.
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Old 09-28-2018, 07:08 PM   #3
platimus
 
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
The wording on ITL 117 does specify a ready weapon, but, since you can attack with a shield (shield rush), it would be reasonable to treat one as a weapon for the purpose of defending (especially since that is what you actually do with a shield). It could easily be made unambiguous one way or the other with a tiny edit.

I've always allowed someone with a shield to defend.
I agree it should be made more clear - somewhere - one way or another. I was wondering about this the other night and tried to find something definite in Melee and ITL but could not. I concluded that you couldn't Defend with a shield and the reasoning behind that design decision was that the shield is going to stop hits no matter what. But I agree with your ruling and it makes sense.
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Old 09-28-2018, 07:28 PM   #4
hcobb
 
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

Can you defend with a shield if you don't have the shield skill and your AdjDX is zero?

How about with the staff on the same turn you use its uber special no-action attack? In that case must you defend against the same figure you did the staff special attack against?

Finally, can one Staff of Power auto-defend against the auto-attack of another?
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

I think you can defend with anything big and solid enough in your hands. After all, you can defend with a short bow in your hand. So yes I think you can defend with a shield in your hand but no weapon. Realistically, I tend to think a shield would be more effective at stopping both ranged and melee attacks than parrying with a weapon.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I think you can defend with anything big and solid enough in your hands. After all, you can defend with a short bow in your hand. So yes I think you can defend with a shield in your hand but no weapon. Realistically, I tend to think a shield would be more effective at stopping both ranged and melee attacks than parrying with a weapon.
I agree, realistically...but what I think is realistic or not realistic seems to lead me astray more often than not when discussing the interpretation of rules.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

OK. After getting some feedback in my thread about the Two-Weapon skill, here's why I think things are worded/handled with shields the way they are...

You can defend without a shield! With just your weapon! So most of the time, it doesn't matter if you can 'parry' with a shield, correct? Where it might matter is if you had a shield and a weapon but the weapon got broke or dropped or something and you suddenly find yourself without a weapon...but you've still got a shield! Yes, I would let someone 'parry' with their shield in that situation.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:26 PM   #8
Skarg
 
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

If you want to be confused again, you can see the new listing for the Shield talent, which says you must have the talent to use a shield, without saying what the result of trying to use a shield without the talent is, exactly.

You can still wear a shield on your back and have it stop one less hit than normal, from the rear only. Seems to me like an untrained person could probably do that well with a shield on their arm, and be allowed to Defend since they've got something solid.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
If you want to be confused again, you can see the new listing for the Shield talent, which says you must have the talent to use a shield, without saying what the result of trying to use a shield without the talent is, exactly.

You can still wear a shield on your back and have it stop one less hit than normal, from the rear only. Seems to me like an untrained person could probably do that well with a shield on their arm, and be allowed to Defend since they've got something solid.
Ha! That is funny! I think it would have been better to just leave out the Shield(1) skill and go straight to the Shield Expertise(2) skill. In fact, Shield Expertise doesn't mention needing Shield as a requirement.

But to answer your question: What happens if you use a shield without the talent? I'd say "Nothing. Absolutely nothing. When you get hit, that shield does absolutely nothing! Doesn't matter where it is. It stops 0 hits." LOL

Last edited by platimus; 09-28-2018 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:48 PM   #10
Skarg
 
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Default Re: A dagger can defend, but a shield cannot

Another idea is trying to fight with a shield without the shield talent gives you an adjDX penalty, possibly -4DX like other lack-of-talent weapon use. I'd still let it protect at a reduced rate, since it's there, assuming you didn't crit-fail your IQ roll and are wearing it on your head or holding it someplace truly useless.
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