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Old 08-23-2018, 08:57 AM   #41
GranitePenguin
 
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Sure, I get that. But as I've said: do they really need to be targetable? Seriously think about it. I really believe that, if you work through the possible situations and scenarios, you don't need a new rule.
Everything external on an ogre is targetable, why not the door to a hold?
Quote:
...but I can also dig D5, destroys the bay and anything inside; Vulcans can repair the bay but not the contents. D4 seems a bit weak, and the D8 from the Assault Pack playtest rules is way too much.
D8 is a monster, but at the same time we are talking about something carrying things inside an ogre. It should be freakin' hard to hit.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:22 AM   #42
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Sure, I get that. But as I've said: do they really need to be targetable? Seriously think about it. I really believe that, if you work through the possible situations and scenarios, you don't need a new rule.

...but I can also dig D5, destroys the bay and anything inside; Vulcans can repair the bay but not the contents. D4 seems a bit weak, and the D8 from the Assault Pack playtest rules is way too much.
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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Everything external on an ogre is targetable, why not the door to a hold?

D8 is a monster, but at the same time we are talking about something carrying things inside an ogre. It should be freakin' hard to hit.
Bowed out early because I never got past needing a 'hard sell' with my own idea, but it's been pretty fascinating watching this one develop. You're both coming at it from a position of 'elegant rules', which given the people involved I'd expect no less, yet opposite directions.

One asks "What does it add to the game, except fiddly rules?", the other asks "Does not having it open an exploit?".
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:30 AM   #43
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
Everything external on an ogre is targetable, why not the door to a hold?

D8 is a monster, but at the same time we are talking about something carrying things inside an ogre. It should be freakin' hard to hit.
What would you two think of multiple bays - 3 doors, one for each INF, at D4 ?

That'd keep the D value from being too high to touch with a lone GEV, and provide good plot options for building scenarios with specialized things in the bays.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:32 AM   #44
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

Also agree this is a fascinating read, but I do have one small nit. Would you willingly climb inside an Ogre and head off to battle? I'd want something easy enough to escape from, yet strong enough to protect me ... which seems at odds with each other in the long run.

Last edited by Mack_JB; 08-23-2018 at 09:32 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:53 AM   #45
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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Also agree this is a fascinating read, but I do have one small nit. Would you willingly climb inside an Ogre and head off to battle? I'd want something easy enough to escape from, yet strong enough to protect me ... which seems at odds with each other in the long run.
I have thought about that a bit in the context of rules text, too. INF don't ride Ogres because they don't feel at ease around them.
5.11.1 It would be physically possible for an Ogre to carry a number of infantry squads equal to its Size minus 3. Unless specifically permitted in a scenario, you will not get the infantry to go along with that idea.
I'd personally feel even less at ease inside one. :-)
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:58 AM   #46
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

Now a Shuriken Drone or an LAD, that would be an easy to justify cargo ... but we also have the handwavium of the IDF using INF inside the Golem ... so it's a bit of a toss-up.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:52 AM   #47
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
I have thought about that a bit in the context of rules text, too. INF don't ride Ogres because they don't feel at ease around them.
5.11.1 It would be physically possible for an Ogre to carry a number of infantry squads equal to its Size minus 3. Unless specifically permitted in a scenario, you will not get the infantry to go along with that idea.
I'd personally feel even less at ease inside one. :-)
It's a cultural thing in GURPS Ogre. The Nihon ogres apparently count as soldiers more than material culturally, so the INF are more comfortable. The IDF doesn't have the "not invented here" problem.

Given the options, I'd ride inside an ogre behind a D4 door before climbing on top of a SHVY and sitting next to another squad.

Last edited by dwalend; 08-23-2018 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Better quote
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:57 AM   #48
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
Now a Shuriken Drone or an LAD, that would be an easy to justify cargo
LADs and drones might be harder to justify for game balance. I would want to see if they made the map remarkably shorter in smash-the-CP. I *think* they would both be OK - basically an extra ogre missile - so long as the defender got first shot at them if they deployed in-range of the command post.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:18 PM   #49
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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Originally Posted by TheAmishStig View Post
Bowed out early because I never got past needing a 'hard sell' with my own idea, but it's been pretty fascinating watching this one develop. You're both coming at it from a position of 'elegant rules', which given the people involved I'd expect no less, yet opposite directions.

One asks "What does it add to the game, except fiddly rules?", the other asks "Does not having it open an exploit?".
And that's why discussions like this are valuable. We're all on the same basic page, we just have different ideas about how to go do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
I have thought about that a bit in the context of rules text, too. INF don't ride Ogres because they don't feel at ease around them.
5.11.1 It would be physically possible for an Ogre to carry a number of infantry squads equal to its Size minus 3. Unless specifically permitted in a scenario, you will not get the infantry to go along with that idea.
I'd personally feel even less at ease inside one. :-)
Heavy assault carriers are an actual thing, and Israel has deployed several versions, often based on obsolete tanks. Note that it's really only the Combine that has trouble trusting Ogres. PanEurope attaches them directly to conventional combat commands and Nihon treats theirs like celebrities. With training, and from a different cultural mindset, there is really no reason Israel couldn't find troopers willing to ride in a Golem.

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Originally Posted by dwalend View Post
LADs and drones might be harder to justify for game balance. I would want to see if they made the map remarkably shorter in smash-the-CP. I *think* they would both be OK - basically an extra ogre missile - so long as the defender got first shot at them if they deployed in-range of the command post.
Those are things I hadn't considered. Perhaps we're at the point where we should start setting up maps and trying things.
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Old 08-25-2018, 10:55 AM   #50
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Default Re: Presenting the Israeli Golem (unofficial)

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It's a cultural thing in GURPS Ogre. .
If we are gonna take that into account, I gotta restate my previously explained theory in the last big thread about this topic position that specifically for cultural reasons the Jewish State wouldn't use Ogres to begin with, much less one with a name that in IDF slang means "someone too stupid to do anything but follow basic instructions".


(none of which changes my admiration for ColBosch's work on this particular custom mini)
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