Could Kickstarter be the future of future GURPS Hardbacks?

[Dammann]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

If and when VDS comes out, I would so beg borrow and... beg some more to help kickstart a Gurps Robots book done in that style.

Yep. I am in the same boat. GURPS Robot Design System would be most welcome, and I'd support any Kickstarter program that helped bring it about. I recognize the problems with a Kickstarter for unwritten supplements. But I am actually fine with supporting a project that features a long time GURPS author like Mr. Pulver, even if I must wait a year after the fundraising closes to receive one of those crunchy books. It is better than not paying and waiting even longer, for me! A mean, a writer's gotta eat, I assume.

I am also in the David Pulver fan club boat. I think of it as a smaller boat, maybe a life boat or a launch secured to the deck of a full-rigged pinnace. I'm looking forward to statting out both boats!

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Why couldn't someone like David do a Kickstarter project for him to write a new GURPS book?

In a word, risk.

SJ has said that they were going to do the new edition of Ogre anyway, Kickstarter or not. Kickstarter was a tool to experiment with pre-orders, gauge interest, and possibly add on extra physical features. However, the important bit is that this is all in addition to the completely separate decision to move ahead with the new edition, which was a done deal. Notably, the game, in terms of rules and scenarios, was complete. The types of units, the maps, and everything about playing the game wasn't going to change; this has all been about the game's physical form, distribution, and its future, not about changes to Ogre itself.

Pushing a Kickstarter to an earlier stage in a project introduces significant risks. If David were to take it on himself to raise money for a book he's interested in ("Give me money and I'll pitch a book on ninja robot catgirls!"), there's no guarantee SJ Games will want to publish it. If it gets run before there's a final manuscript, there's the chance that the author won't complete the book for some reason or turn in a manuscript that doesn't get accepted; the former seems unlikely in this case (though it has happened with other authors), but Vehicle Design is a perfect example of the latter. David's pretty much the best GURPS author there is, and he's still had a book in limbo for years. Those are cases where a Kickstarter could take your money and give you no book in return, which would make people very unhappy indeed. That seems like the kind of risk SJ Games doesn't want to take on.

So it's not until they've got a final (or nearly so) draft, where all the remaining work is the relatively mechanical process of production, that they can speak with enough confidence about being able to publish a book that they'd be at least theoretically willing to start asking for money. Moreover, the things they wanted out of KS for Ogre mostly don't apply to GURPS. Whereas Ogre was OOP for a long time, they've got a very good barometer for interest in GURPS in the form of sales of current products, and there's not a lot to add in the way of physical features.

Unless they want to expand into the area of vaporware, the only use I see for a GURPS Kickstarter would be to test the waters for physical versions. For example, they might see how many people would buy a Dungeon Fantasy box set (something like a slipcovered set of the first few DF books, not a reedited or otherwise re-shuffled edition) or even see if they could fund a POD machine.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

New players balk at plunking down the money for Basic. Why do you think they would plunk down even more for everything under the SJG sun?

Because the subscription format is working out well over at Pathfinder? It's not like they don't have a hojillion core books and supplements, never mind the legions of compatible D&D3.5 material.

Paying by installment tends to make people much less cranky than asking them to pay for everything up front - but that said, I'd personally insist it's "rent to own", not "rent". If you do that, then I'd be all over the idea.

I prefer rent-to-own because gaming is one of those hobbies that, once you've made the initial investment(s), requires no financial upkeep. I'm a slave to suplementitis like many on the forum here, but it's REALLY NICE to know that if everything goes pear shaped and my husband and I both loose our jobs and have to move into my moms basement, we can still keep gaming as long as I find a place to stuff my books.

[lugaid]

I have a question and a comment.

First, though it is somewhat off-topic, it has been brought up here, and I haven't been on the forums in a few years (!), so I haven't heard. Why is it that GURPS VDS/Vehicles is not happening?

So, my comment: I was a pretty hardcore GURPS player for a lot of years, ever since I helped a friend playtest GURPS Cyberpunk. It so happened that I lost my job shortly before 4E came out, and so I was delayed in getting the game by a little while as I spent my time getting my life back in order. During that period, my gaming group stopped playing GURPS, so we never got around to really getting into 4E. I eventually left that group, and tried to get into 4E, but found out that most of the material was being published PDF-only. Now, I understand that a lot of people like PDFs (several in this thread, in fact), but I don't. The lack of a lot of the good material being published in print has kept me from coming back to GURPS in anything like the fervor I once had for the game. It's even more frustrating when I see all of the options available for POD services that allow single copies of a book to be printed and delivered to individuals for a reasonable cost (which is not an ideal solution, for reasons that I'll allude to in a moment, but is still better for those of us who prefer print). A campaign of Kickstarter-style funding for print projects might get some interest in the line among people who otherwise might not even know that the game is still around.

Someone mentioned an all-electronic strategy for GURPS. Obviously from the above, I am deeply opposed to such a direction. Not least, it would necessarily limit the audience to, largely, people who already know and play the game, or who are otherwise already SJG customers. Even today, the FLGS is an important link in getting new players.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by lugaid

First, though it is somewhat off-topic, it has been brought up here, and I haven't been on the forums in a few years (!), so I haven't heard. Why is it that GURPS VDS/Vehicles is not happening?

It is and has been on the back burner for years. It is a really big project and the author has other things on his plate that pay the bills.
Even if you have a long term project that you know will make you a lot of money sometimes you have ot put it off and work on shorter term projects that pay the bills now rather then much later. And despite the passionate demand some people have for it this project probably wont make a lot of money.

I eventually left that group, and tried to get into 4E, but found out that most of the material was being published PDF-only. Now, I understand that a lot of people like PDFs (several in this thread, in fact), but I don't. The lack of a lot of the good material being published in print has kept me from coming back to GURPS in anything like the fervor I once had for the game.

Even today, the FLGS is an important link in getting new players.

FLGS are becoming less and less relavant :(

And electronic media is much mor in demand and has lower production and storage costs then printed media. The price of these PDFs are pretty cheap compared to a print version of the same material.
They also are not books lost in a move (I lost most of my 3e material that way) or damaged in say a flood (i lost some that way also).
Even if your computer crashes and you lose your hard drive you can just download them again at no charge from E23.

I prefer printed for easy reading but the electronic versions are getting easier to read all the time as more and better portable devices get out there. Also I can lug my entire collection on a USB or my phone to the gaming table. Much better then not bringing a book you didn't think you would need to the game.

[lugaid]

Originally Posted by Refplace

FLGS are becoming less and less relavant :(

That doesn't accord with my experience.

And electronic media is much mor in demand and has lower production and storage costs then printed media. The price of these PDFs are pretty cheap compared to a print version of the same material.
They also are not books lost in a move (I lost most of my 3e material that way) or damaged in say a flood (i lost some that way also).
Even if your computer crashes and you lose your hard drive you can just download them again at no charge from E23.

I prefer printed for easy reading but the electronic versions are getting easier to read all the time as more and better portable devices get out there. Also I can lug my entire collection on a USB or my phone to the gaming table. Much better then not bringing a book you didn't think you would need to the game.

Those are some good arguments, but they still require a reader of some sort. In my tabletop games, I don't allow electronic devices anymore, as they demonstrably distract players from the game. If I wanted to have all the players have their noses in computers, I'd be playing an MMO. And I don't play MMOs. Now, maybe I'd get use out of a dedicated reader, but there are two problems with that: first, I don't have one (heck, my mobile phone is mostly just a phone, not a portable terminal); second, even if I did, I can't have several books open at once on it, such that I can compare one page to another (for instance). It's just inherently clumsier for the way that I approach gaming, and, since I've been gaming for a long time (over 30 years, in fact), I have no interest in throwing that long history and experience away in pursuit of a new way of doing things.

Which is just a way of saying that there are no unalloyed benefits to moving to a digital-only strategy for tabletop gaming. In doing so, the company that chooses that strategy is going to lose some of their former customers. When those customers could be retained by a simple expedient, it is dismaying to see them (especially when that "them" is me) thrown by the wayside as if they don't matter.

[Grouchy Chris]

Originally Posted by lugaid

I have a question and a comment.

First, though it is somewhat off-topic, it has been brought up here, and I haven't been on the forums in a few years (!), so I haven't heard. Why is it that GURPS VDS/Vehicles is not happening?

This thread explains it pretty well. I would sum it up by saying that Vehicle Design is happening, slowly, and that's because writing and editing resources are limited, and such a large, crunchy book takes a lot of those resources. But read the thread and get the word straight from Kromm.

[TJA]

What´s a "kickstarter"?!?

:-O

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by lugaid

That doesn't accord with my experience.


Which is just a way of saying that there are no unalloyed benefits to moving to a digital-only strategy for tabletop gaming. In doing so, the company that chooses that strategy is going to lose some of their former customers. When those customers could be retained by a simple expedient, it is dismaying to see them (especially when that "them" is me) thrown by the wayside as if they don't matter.

Well your lucky then. I miss a good FLGS but we only have one nearby and that caters to card games more then RPGs.

As for the electronci, I have been gaming for around 30 years myself and like my books. But I see the realities of the economy and understand the change. And have adapted. They still publish books but oly if sales will be high and in return we get to see many more books published on average with the electronic format.
So more content per year, even if its less then ideal in format. I can work with that.
There getting new customers too but I dont feel as if there tossing the old ones aside. It is our choice to what we buy and really print books wont keep a small company in business. Those days are long gone.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by TJA

What´s a "kickstarter"?!?

:-O

Project for hire system.