Could Kickstarter be the future of future GURPS Hardbacks?

[Tomsdad]

That's a fair concern, I have seen some examples of that in the hobby, or of even well supported and anticipated books taking a very long time to complete.

I guess the trick would not to be two ambitious at first and build up a resource base around it. But it still a big step, and not free of risk.

The down side of kick starter is you are rather publicly committed!

[ClayDowling]

I think your first problematic assumption is that there are freelancers making their living writing for RPGs. If there are, they're precious few.

The key to whether this would work or not: would you be willing to dedicate your time to this project if you could make a small amount of money? If the answer is no, it's not reasonable to think that anybody else is either.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by ClayDowling

I think your first problematic assumption is that there are freelancers making their living writing for RPGs. If there are, they're precious few.

The key to whether this would work or not: would you be willing to dedicate your time to this project if you could make a small amount of money? If the answer is no, it's not reasonable to think that anybody else is either.

QFT

As a freelancer (right now I only do Pyramid articles, but I dream on "graduating" to short e23 PDFs, and from there, to world dom... err... to bigger e23 PDFs), the amount of effort and time I put into a submission is several orders of magnitude greater than the economic reward I will get from it. To put it differently, I would not only need to forsake sleep, but to find a way to work 48 hours a day, to make a living at that rate. This may be due to my lack of experience (no doubt, I'm an amateur writer, with no formal training in it), to the fact that I'm not writing in my native language (and not my second [Valencia Catalan] or third [French] either, English is my fourth language [Spanish is my first, if the Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer isn't enough of a hint]), or to the fact that I'm simply not wired for it.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by ClayDowling

I think your first problematic assumption is that there are freelancers making their living writing for RPGs. If there are, they're precious few.

Maybe not many whose income is solely derived but there a few who supplement their core income by doing so. Also more products more income, more income larger 'industry', greater demand.

As I said in my last post though we seem to be talking about very different models of support and production though.

Also why does it have to be one freelancer per project? Get a proper regularly funded product stream going it doesn't have to one person per product making a pittance but one person per five products making a living far less than they could elsewhere (just like everyone else fully employed in the RPG industry)!

Originally Posted by ClayDowling

The key to whether this would work or not: would you be willing to dedicate your time to this project if you could make a small amount of money? If the answer is no, it's not reasonable to think that anybody else is either.

Am I indicative of the all people wanting to write products for rpgs, not really. So assumptions based on my choices are not that helpful.

If you were relying on my example for creating this hobby we'd still be pointing our fingers at each other and shouting 'kapow, I hit you'.

Or to put it another way I think there are many more people prepared to buy RPGs products than write them, which is why there's an industry as well as a hobby. Although that should possibly be 'cottage' industry.

As far as I can tell almost the entire industry has been based on a few people making a 'small' amount of money right from it's inception. What you say could easily be applied to GURPS as an entire line, or the RPG industry in general.

TBH my entire position is based on the assumption that there is greater demand for GURPS products than there is currently a supply for. If this isn't case then it would be a waste of time. Maybe my problem is I'm just hungry for more (but don't trust myself to write it for myself)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

QFT

As a freelancer (right now I only do Pyramid articles, but I dream on "graduating" to short e23 PDFs, and from there, to world dom... err... to bigger e23 PDFs), the amount of effort and time I put into a submission is several orders of magnitude greater than the economic reward I will get from it. To put it differently, I would not only need to forsake sleep, but to find a way to work 48 hours a day, to make a living at that rate. This may be due to my lack of experience (no doubt, I'm an amateur writer, with no formal training in it), to the fact that I'm not writing in my native language (and not my second [Valencia Catalan] or third [French] either, English is my fourth language [Spanish is my first, if the Mad Spaniard Rules Lawyer isn't enough of a hint]), or to the fact that I'm simply not wired for it.

Well I'm not going to doubt your actual experience of it. But I would say what I had in mind would involve a bit of economy of scale (even if that scale was still a relative term).

[wellspring]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

As a freelancer (right now I only do Pyramid articles, but I dream on "graduating" to short e23 PDFs, and from there, to world dom... err... to bigger e23 PDFs), the amount of effort and time I put into a submission is several orders of magnitude greater than the economic reward I will get from it.

This is something that I don't think people grasp. I looked up sales numbers on e23 for the Psi books (Psionic Powers, Psionic Campaigns, Psis, Psi Tech and the Pyramid issue). Total revenue for the entire line: $25k. (I'm not including pyramid subscriptions or printed copies of Psionic Powers-- just the PDF's sold.) The Spaceships series, wildly successful: $61k. By all means, tell me if I'm wrong.

That's revenue, not profit. Volume goes up for a printed supplement, but margins go way down. So if you want some supplement, you're going to have to find a vast market for printed-only supplements that isn't already buying PDFs. Or be able to demonstrate that a new hardback will bring in lots of new GURPS players to buy Basic Sets. So let's put to rest the idea of economies of scale. They just aren't there.

A book requires tremendous fixed costs in the form of both writers and editors. Talent who know the material and can also write in an RPG-friendly style. All that skull sweat is expensive. Do you think Anders Sandberg or Jamais Cascio wrote THS supplements because they need the money? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say the top authors are mostly doing this as a labor of love.

The market's just not big enough, no matter how you collect the funds. And you're not going to expand the market using a payment mechanism tailored to your existing, hard-core fans.

Where I do see potential is if we used a system like Kickstart to finance hardcover re-prints. Hardcovers of Martial Arts, for example, sell for $70+ on eBay and Amazon, suggesting that another printing might be worth it. Kickstart makes the project much less speculative.

For new content, though, I think the idea's a non-starter.

[jacobmuller]

I'll gleefully put money into a kickstarter for pdfs of GURPS books.

I like physical books but it's now not only vastly simpler, easier, and faster but cheaper to buy pdfs and print what I need. I use microsoft reader and kindle software on my netbook but still buy paperback novels; I don't see that lasting much longer. I have a ridiculous, IMO, number of dvds and cds; they could so easily be a digital library.

If kickstarter funded the writing of GURPS supplements as pdf only I'd be more than happy. I've signed up for Shadowrun and Ogre solely for the pdfs - I live on an island* and I'm not rich.
*despite being part of the UK, and having access to the Royal Mail, some companies try to levy a $15 fee for delivery "outside the UK".

[wellspring]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

I'll gleefully put money into a kickstarter for pdfs of GURPS books.

OK but point being: do you buy the PDFs currently?

[dcarson]

I remember years ago a discussion here about losing many gaming writers to genre fiction writing when they got some experience. In the fiction writing business a midlist writer can count on making a bit over minimum wage. And a book that breaks out can make you real money. This was much better than they make in gaming writing.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by dcarson

I remember years ago a discussion here about losing many gaming writers to genre fiction writing when they got some experience. In the fiction writing business a midlist writer can count on making a bit over minimum wage. And a book that breaks out can make you real money. This was much better than they make in gaming writing.

"Generally being able to afford rent and groceries, might win the lottery one day" is extremely attractive :D