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Old 12-12-2018, 02:38 PM   #1451
Plane
 
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I noticed on page 11 of Gun-Fu (this is visible in the preview at http://www.warehouse23.com/media/SJG37-0133_preview.pdf ) that Tricky Shooting : Ranged Disarms introduces a strong possibility of dropping weapons, even if a bullet only did 1 damage.

B400 Striking at Weapons introduces what you call Instant Disarms on page 13 of Technical Grappling, and you keep it as a Quick Contest where both attacker or defender can make a ST-based roll for their weapon if it's better than DX.

Ranged Disarms doesn't use a Quick Contest, it uses a single ST roll by the defender to retain the weapon, with a possible penalty depending on damage the bullet would normally do. This is -1 per 2 damage, which sounds a lot like ephemeral control points equal to the damage an attack does.

This rule is brutal against low ST users since even without penalties they are highly likely to fail an unopposed ST roll, whereas they could still have a high chance of winning a Quick Contest against someone of equally low ST by simply failing less than they do.

This is "instead of harming the weapon or your enemy's hand" which sounds cinematic and not realistic, but it does sound like the impact from bullets hitting a gun should give some reduction in control points.

If you were to do that, what kind of reduction in control points would be reasonable?

You replaced the Quick Contest of ST for "Break Free" in Basic Set with attacks on control points, so could "Instant Disarm" also be converted away from a Quick Contest to an attack against CP this way?

How this differs from usual grappling is the option to sub DX, so couldn't it be done simply by having DX-based calculation of dice for Control Point damage?

Damaging bites come with CP for free, and applying CP with cutting weapons comes with damage for free, so maybe kinetic hits in general could come with free CP reductions against things trying to keep ahold of them? That seems to be in the spirit of what Gun-Fu intends for 'Ranged Disarm'.
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Old 12-12-2018, 05:26 PM   #1452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I noticed on page 11 of Gun-Fu (this is visible in the preview at http://www.warehouse23.com/media/SJG37-0133_preview.pdf ) that Tricky Shooting : Ranged Disarms introduces a strong possibility of dropping weapons, even if a bullet only did 1 damage.

B400 Striking at Weapons introduces what you call Instant Disarms on page 13 of Technical Grappling, and you keep it as a Quick Contest where both attacker or defender can make a ST-based roll for their weapon if it's better than DX.

Ranged Disarms doesn't use a Quick Contest, it uses a single ST roll by the defender to retain the weapon, with a possible penalty depending on damage the bullet would normally do. This is -1 per 2 damage, which sounds a lot like ephemeral control points equal to the damage an attack does.
Heh. Indeed, Instant Disarms is basically "I have to keep some semblance of compatibility with B400." I hadn't noticed the similarity with control points at -1 per 2 CP . . . but that's cool.

When spending CP, it's usually -1 to the roll per 1 CP spent, so either 2:1 or 1:1 would be a good rate of exchange here. For bullets, which don't push people around very well, the 2:1 might be the better bet.

Quote:
This rule is brutal against low ST users since even without penalties they are highly likely to fail an unopposed ST roll, whereas they could still have a high chance of winning a Quick Contest against someone of equally low ST by simply failing less than they do.

This is "instead of harming the weapon or your enemy's hand" which sounds cinematic and not realistic, but it does sound like the impact from bullets hitting a gun should give some reduction in control points.

If you were to do that, what kind of reduction in control points would be reasonable?

You replaced the Quick Contest of ST for "Break Free" in Basic Set with attacks on control points, so could "Instant Disarm" also be converted away from a Quick Contest to an attack against CP this way?

How this differs from usual grappling is the option to sub DX, so couldn't it be done simply by having DX-based calculation of dice for Control Point damage?

Damaging bites come with CP for free, and applying CP with cutting weapons comes with damage for free, so maybe kinetic hits in general could come with free CP reductions against things trying to keep ahold of them? That seems to be in the spirit of what Gun-Fu intends for 'Ranged Disarm'.
My inclination would be either a 1:1 or 2:1 penalty to something like Retain Weapon; I have no problem with checking for a disarm based on the damage done as if the weapon had made a grapple (the bullet hit) and spent all its control points trying to wrest the weapon away (reduce Grip CP). This might knock it away, might Unready it.

Treating the shot as a ranged grapple doing half basic damage? Seems legit. Could even apply the bullet size modifier to it, as a big, heavy bullet might well push things around better than a light, fast one. Momentum vs energy.

In all cases, I'd keep in mind that TG was written during my "max simulationism!" phase, which means "get it right" took precedence in my mind over "make it welcome at the gaming table for all."

I'd reverse those too now, and find the simplest way that gets the desired effect:

1) roll damage
2) halve it
3) Is it more than User's ST - Min ST of weapon? Make a ST check or drop it.
4) If not, make a DX/Retain Weapon check or unready.

Even the comparison in 3 is more math than one would like, but "I will use the biggest, most powerful gun I can!" currently comes with no real downside.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:13 AM   #1453
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"Ranged Disarm" seems to be an alternative to the "Only a weapon that can parry can attempt to disarm" from B401's "Knocking a Weapon Away" since you probably can't parry attacks using bullets, even if it's possible to parry with a gun itself.

KAWA rules "If your foe wins or ties, he keeps his weapon, but it will be unready unless he won by 3 or more" and under Armed Grappling (TG12) you mention "If CP fall below this minimum, the weapon is unready but still grasped"

So in the case of winning the QC against a disarm by 0/1/2 points, you would expect control points on that weapon to be reduced to below the minimum required to use the weapon.

Instant Disarm determines whether a weapon is unreadied or disarmed depends on the Margin of Victory, I'm wondering if there is a way to convert the Margin of Victory from the Quick Contest into a loss of Control Points instead, so that it would be easier to unready or disarm a weapon which already is below maximum Grip ST.

Or, instead of a Margin of Victory, since Ranged Disarm introduces the idea of a one-sided success roll (probably because trying to calculate a pseudoST based on bullet damage to do a standard QC would be extra work for players) a loss of Grip ST based on a Margin of Failure in a single-roll ST check made harder by damage.

"Ranged Disarm" seems to ignore the value of a high DX in retaining weapons, which seems wrong. If you can make a DX-based roll on Retain Weapon for someone trying to punch a gun out of your hand, why not also a DX-based roll on Retain Weapon to prevent a gun from being shot out of your hand? Unless it's a special case of "bullets are too fast for your DX to react to, but your ST is already in place so it can"?

Bullet impact shouldn't have any special benefits in a realistic game so if they're allowed the benefit of a one-sided ST check, it would be good if those rules worked for any other Piercing (or Crushing/Cutting/Impaling) attacks too.

Quote:
"I will use the biggest, most powerful gun I can!" currently comes with no real downside.
Using your Armed Grappling rules, the higher your ST, the greater the difference between your max Grip CP vs the minimum Grip CP required to keep the weapon readied, so you can afford to lose more CP on your weapon without having it unreadied. Higher ST also means you can apply more CP to improve your grip on the weapon when grappling for it (when you can't simply use a Ready maneuver to apply it to full in 1 turn).

Your 4-step process sounds like it was written for non-TG games, I'm mostly interested in how to adapt the "Ranged Disarm" 1-sided ST check based on damage inflicted to weapon idea into an attack on current Grip CP that exists on a weapon.

Another area I'm wondering about Grip CP is in terms of how skillfully a weapon is used. B270 had "you will be at -1 to weapon skill per point of ST you lack and lose one extra FP at the end of any fight that lasts long enough to fatigue you."

B274 has Katanas requiring ST 10, so someone with ST 9 would be in that situation. Grip CP is "1xST for two-handed ones" so someone with ST 9 would have Grip CP 9 on a Katana. Should someone with ST 10 but only 9/10 grip CP on the Katana function like a ST 9 person in terms of the amount of damage they do with it, and the DX penalties they suffer wielding it?

Also in respect to the below-ST penalty to DX and Readiness: Two-handed weapons' minimum Grip CP is their full ST requirement, so it sounds like in Technical Grappling that someone with ST 9 could never apply enough Grip CP to "Ready" a katana, since their maximum grip CP is lower than the minimum Grip CP required to keep the weapon ready.

So is the capability of an untrained ST 9 person to pick up a Katana and swing it at -1 to skill is basically gone now in TG? If so, what would be a solution for allowing it?

I was thinking if we adapt this "extra FP at the end" to your Action Point system, it could be something like being able to exceed Grip CP maximums so long as you pay 1 AP/turn to maintain the tight grip, but how much extra Grip CP should that give?
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:14 PM   #1454
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there's a lot here to respond to, and I'm low on time. I'll first make a few notes that jumped into my mind in passing.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If you can make a DX-based roll on Retain Weapon for someone trying to punch a gun out of your hand, why not also a DX-based roll on Retain Weapon to prevent a gun from being shot out of your hand? Unless it's a special case of "bullets are too fast for your DX to react to, but your ST is already in place so it can"?
This. A punch is on the order of 10-12m/s based on a quick google search; bullets range from the slow 245m/s of the .45 ACP to about 1000m/s for some of the nastier magnum rounds, and can ping out at 1500m/s or more for sabot shots and "accelerator" type projectiles.

Quote:
Bullet impact shouldn't have any special benefits in a realistic game
Why not? Piercing attacks are almost always (pi arrows are an unwanted exception here) high velocity, low momentum blows; they probably should be treated differently than the more body-mass/body-velocity stuff that is frequently cut, crush, impale.


Quote:
Using your Armed Grappling rules, the higher your ST, the greater the difference between your max Grip CP vs the minimum Grip CP required to keep the weapon readied, so you can afford to lose more CP on your weapon without having it unreadied. Higher ST also means you can apply more CP to improve your grip on the weapon when grappling for it (when you can't simply use a Ready maneuver to apply it to full in 1 turn).
All true.

Quote:
Your 4-step process sounds like it was written for non-TG games, I'm mostly interested in how to adapt the "Ranged Disarm" 1-sided ST check based on damage inflicted to weapon idea into an attack on current Grip CP that exists on a weapon.
One of the core concepts/conceits in technical grappling is that control is just a damage type. So "roll damage, halve it or whatever, treat as temporary control points" is supposed to take the energetic damage of pi type bullets and turn it into something on the control point scale.

If you wanted to do a control-point based response, treat the response as a Grabbing Parry. Bullet hits, inflicts some appropriate amount of control. As a reflex roll half your Trained ST (based on training with Retain Weapon) to regrip instantly. If you're less than the minimum ST for the weapon, it's unready or whatnot.

Quote:
Another area I'm wondering about Grip CP is in terms of how skillfully a weapon is used. B270 had "you will be at -1 to weapon skill per point of ST you lack and lose one extra FP at the end of any fight that lasts long enough to fatigue you."

B274 has Katanas requiring ST 10, so someone with ST 9 would be in that situation. Grip CP is "1xST for two-handed ones" so someone with ST 9 would have Grip CP 9 on a Katana. Should someone with ST 10 but only 9/10 grip CP on the Katana function like a ST 9 person in terms of the amount of damage they do with it, and the DX penalties they suffer wielding it?
So a few things here: Grip CP? Neat idea. Not good in play. It's fiddle and has caused very much grief. It was the second thing to go when I simplified things as I adapted TG to other systems, and were I to rewrite TG in a second edition I'd almost certainly find a better, faster way to do this.

But yeah, if you're not gripping the weapon right, you should probably apply less force with it.

Quote:
Also in respect to the below-ST penalty to DX and Readiness: Two-handed weapons' minimum Grip CP is their full ST requirement, so it sounds like in Technical Grappling that someone with ST 9 could never apply enough Grip CP to "Ready" a katana, since their maximum grip CP is lower than the minimum Grip CP required to keep the weapon ready.

So is the capability of an untrained ST 9 person to pick up a Katana and swing it at -1 to skill is basically gone now in TG? If so, what would be a solution for allowing it?
Grip CP don't interact well with this area of the rules. Try striking at a max value equal to your Grip CP, or (easier) if you're under the weapon's ST, take -1 per die to damage, and can't use it if you're under ST/2 or something. Also apply the -1 to skill.

I'm completely making this up, it should be noted.

Quote:
I was thinking if we adapt this "extra FP at the end" to your Action Point system, it could be something like being able to exceed Grip CP maximums so long as you pay 1 AP/turn to maintain the tight grip, but how much extra Grip CP should that give?
1 AP per turn will start causing actual long term FP loss in as little as ten seconds. If you're spending that, my gut tells me "you get them all back."

I know I wrote both articles, but combining them this way, plus tossing in some Martial Arts goodness, sounds like a game that many folks will not want to play. That's not meant as a jab, just feedback that's both come to me on my own work, plus a few attempts of my own to play my own modified rules: the early ones like The Last Gasp can badly hurt the fun quotient of the game if combined with many other fiddly bits. Most folks don't want to track CP on the other guy, Grip CP on yourself, Action Points, Fatigue Points, Hit Points, Bonus points (for Wild card skills, or their equivalent from Luck), Tactics Rerolls, etc at the same time. The book-keeping burden overwhelms whatever momentum a game might have.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 12-13-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 07:42 PM   #1455
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GURPSDay Summary Dec 7, 2018 – Dec 13, 2018
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:17 PM   #1456
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[applies The Deadly Spring to in-swing cheiroballistra after reading university study, cackles madly, hands results to dwarves to make bronze coil springs]
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Old 12-13-2018, 09:44 PM   #1457
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[applies The Deadly Spring to in-swing cheiroballistra after reading university study, cackles madly, hands results to dwarves to make bronze coil springs]
I will allow it.
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:58 AM   #1458
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This. A punch is on the order of 10-12m/s based on a quick google search; bullets range from the slow 245m/s of the .45 ACP to about 1000m/s for some of the nastier magnum rounds, and can ping out at 1500m/s or more for sabot shots and "accelerator" type projectiles.
Would a general guideline be something like "if it's too fast to parry then it's too fast to do a DX-based retain"? Speed ranges between punches and bullets (like throwing darts and crossbows) also need to fall somewhere on the spectrum.

Maybe the way to do it is DX penalties which get high enough that a Brute Parry becomes more appealing, and "Ranged Disarm" assumes they're doing some sort of Brute Parry, except instead of trying to roll under ST/2+3 they're trying to roll under ST/1-dmg

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Why not? Piercing attacks are almost always (pi arrows are an unwanted exception here) high velocity, low momentum blows; they probably should be treated differently than the more body-mass/body-velocity stuff that is frequently cut, crush, impale.
Lower velocity stuff like arrows have "Blockable", while if it was meant to be like a thrown attack it would also be "Parryable". So maybe DX-based retentions should be allowed, but suffer penalties based on what you would normally take to try and parry a thrown weapon or shot arrow?

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One of the core concepts/conceits in technical grappling is that control is just a damage type. So "roll damage, halve it or whatever, treat as temporary control points" is supposed to take the energetic damage of pi type bullets and turn it into something on the control point scale.
I was thinking possibly permanent instead of temporary. If you dislodge their grip they can take time to restore it.

Biting matches CP and damage so I was thinking 1:1 ratio initially, but if it hits the gun then the hand grappling the gun (being 1 part disconnected) would be "referred control" resulting in your 1:2 ratio?

If we imagine that people who wield weapons were constantly making "Retain Weapon" rolls throughout all combat movements at such a high skill that it was considered a "Nuisance Roll" that everyone avoided for free, then "CP matching damage" could represent CP which was immediately applied to upset that roll.

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If you wanted to do a control-point based response, treat the response as a Grabbing Parry. Bullet hits, inflicts some appropriate amount of control. As a reflex roll half your Trained ST (based on training with Retain Weapon) to regrip instantly. If you're less than the minimum ST for the weapon, it's unready or whatnot.
Since this shouldn't end up with a net increase in CP, perhaps this could be better defined as "thrust-based control resistance"? This would end up with someone with 10/10 Grip CP being less able to avoid damage than someone with 10/11 Grip CP though, unless you rolled thrust based on the Grip CP instead of its max (the Grip ST)


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Grip CP don't interact well with this area of the rules.
I think this is because the rules allowed for using weapons with ST lower than them, but with MinCP equal to the ST requirement, "ST without penalty" becomes "ST needed to have a high enough Grip CP cap to actually ready the weapon at all.

Something like halving this requirement from "half of the weapon’s ST stat if it’s one-handed, or its full ST stat if two-handed" to "1/4 of the weapon's ST stat if it's one-handed, or 1/2 its ST stat if two-handed"...

OR just doubling the maximum CP you could apply. If someone with ST 10 could apply 10 CP to 1-handed weapons and 20 CP to 2-handed weapons, while ST 5 could apply 5 CP to 1-handed weapons and 10 CP to 2-handed weapons then requiring 5/10 CP to keep one/two handed ST 10 weapons readied would still make them usable for these lower ST guys (at the horrible -5 to skill as we're told) while someone ST 4 simply could never ready a katana, rather than it being the ST 9 guy who could never ready one.

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Try striking at a max value equal to your Grip CP, or (easier) if you're under the weapon's ST, take -1 per die to damage, and can't use it if you're under ST/2 or something. Also apply the -1 to skill.

I'm completely making this up, it should be noted.
Someone with low ST already has lower thrust/swing damage which is why I figure Basic Set didn't apply damage penalties for being under the ST requirement for a weapon.

This all assumes uncompromised Grip ST though. If someone with 9/10 Grip ST functions like someone with 9/9 Grip ST then you could just do it like "calculate thrust/swing based on your ST or Grip CP, whichever is lower", which would work out to the usual -1 to damage per 2 ST difference.
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Old 12-16-2018, 11:24 AM   #1459
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Writing update.

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Old 12-21-2018, 06:11 AM   #1460
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GURPSDay Summary Dec 14, 2018 – Dec 20, 2018

Thursday is GURPSDay, and today is a sad day, in that it marked the final issue of this volume of Pyramid magazine. Issue #3/122 was titled, with an appropriate nerdy call-back, “All Good Things,” and while true, it is regrettable all the same. I got my start writing professionally with Pyramid, way back when, with two articles: a geeky one on gun design (still available for free), and a quickie rule on Camping Out in a first person shooter for Frag.

Since that time in 2002, I went on to publish just over a dozen times, and that set me up to eventually start my own blog (in 2012) and game company (in 2016). So it is with a sigh of regret that what was a reliable and quirky support engine for GURPS turns off the lights. I still can’t help but flash back to J. Michael Strazinski turning off the lights for Bablylon 5 in “Sleeping in Light.”

Perhaps, Phoenix-like, something will emerge as embers, in the future.
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