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Old 07-18-2019, 01:03 PM   #11
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: "Handless Arm" parrying

No Manipulators is -50
One Arm + One Hand is -35 (essentially NFM + missing arm 1)
No Fine Manipulators is -30
One Arm is -20
One Hand is -15

NFM basically seems like "no hands" and is worth twice the amount of 1H

I don't know if "no arms" should be worth twice 1A (-40), but it should at least be worth slightly more than 1A+1H for -36.

" It's worse than taking One Arm twice for what should be obvious reasons: the total loss of an important capacity." seems to indicate it might even be valued somewhere from -41 to -49.
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Old 07-18-2019, 01:23 PM   #12
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: "Handless Arm" parrying

I'd be fine with -40. There's not a lot of room for disad values between 'no manipulators' and 'no fine manipulators'.

Alternately, we can make the points work out cleanly for most existing templates by saying 'no arms' is -40, and that 'horizontal' is incompatible with no fine manipulators (which seems fair, it's not terribly limiting that you can't do anything with your hands when you don't have hands to start with). This means existing quadrupeds replace 'no fine manipulators + horizontal' with 'no arms' for the same -40 cost.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:36 PM   #13
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: "Handless Arm" parrying

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
we can make the points work out cleanly for most existing templates by saying 'no arms' is -40, and that 'horizontal' is incompatible with no fine manipulators (which seems fair, it's not terribly limiting that you can't do anything with your hands when you don't have hands to start with).
If No Fine Manipulators doesn't prevent you from punching/parrying, then being unable to do those things because you have to put your arms down to move at full speed is a limitation. But it perhaps should be mitigated to be worth fewer points (maybe a quirk?) since as you say, you're losing less.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:42 PM   #14
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: "Handless Arm" parrying

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If No Fine Manipulators doesn't prevent you from punching/parrying, then being unable to do those things because you have to put your arms down to move at full speed is a limitation.
Horizontal does not seem to prevent you from punching. However, my point is that we can make the math work by assuming quadrupeds aren't "no fine manipulators plus horizontal", they're "no arms".
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