Aim modifiers and limitations

[Erling]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Isn't it just a matter of keeping track of where various bonuses apply

Some apply directly to skill e.g AoA(determined) laser, reflex and collimating sights, software so aren't relevant*

Some apply directly to weapon Acc e.g fine (accurate) upgrade to the gun and hand loaded rounds, so aren't relevant**

Some apply as bonuses to aimed fire e.g telescopic scopes, bracing and aim actions past 1 sec.

More precisely it would be

Some apply directly to the skill (laser, reflex, collimating sights, software), so aren't relevant;
Some apply to aiming circumstances (bracing, extra seconds), so aren't relevant;
Some apply through Aim maneuver and are provided by aiming gear - these bonuses are capped.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

TBH Honest I think pg364 and pg372 actually reference the same limitation, just the wording is slightly different.

You're right, but B372's wording is broken. B364 implied simple rule: targeting gear cannot provide combined bonus higher than base Acc via Aim.
B374 twisted everything, because it mentioned all "aimed-fire bonuses", not only those which are provided by targeting systems.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I think B372 is just wrong.

Yeah, the main fault is phrase "all extra aimed-fire bonuses", because technically that includes bracing and extra-time bonuses. Without Kromm's clarification it would be really broken.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

But you get

Skill-12 goes to Skill-14 due to sight and targeting.

Acc 2 gets boosted by +2 for telescopic vision, +1 for extra time, total of +5 to Acc when you're finished Aiming.

Your shot would be at Skill-19, a total of +7 over your base skill.

Thanks :) I'm glad to see we follow the same interpretation.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Erling

B374 twisted everything, because it mentioned all "aimed-fire bonuses", not only those which are provided by targeting systems.

This isn't the only place that the Basic Set seems to contradict itself. I have encountered two more but unfortunately I can't remember what one of them is exactly. Maybe I'll submit all three as errata, now that seems to be working again. I just need to remember what the third one was...

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Erling

More precisely it would be

Some apply directly to the skill (laser, reflex, collimating sights, software), so aren't relevant;
Some apply to aiming circumstances (bracing, extra seconds), so aren't relevant;
Some apply through Aim maneuver and are provided by aiming gear - these bonuses are capped.

Yeah I was trying to think of some broad definitions, but I kept thinking of exceptions, but those look right

Originally Posted by Erling

You're right, but B372's wording is broken. B364 implied simple rule: targeting gear cannot provide combined bonus higher than base Acc via Aim.
B374 twisted everything, because it mentioned all "aimed-fire bonuses", not only those which are provided by targeting systems.

Yeah, the main fault is phrase "all extra aimed-fire bonuses", because technically that includes bracing and extra-time bonuses. Without Kromm's clarification it would be really broken.

Thanks :) I'm glad to see we follow the same interpretation.

I think there are two ways to go, either forget about the it being only "basic acc" that counts as the limit, so that if you brace a acc 0 hand gun, or fire accurate arrows from a bow you boost it's acc by 1 and can then get an extra 1's worth of aiming bonus

Which still limits Acc 0 & 1 weapons, but means that you can improve inaccurate weapon performance but you have to engineer the situation more carefully. AoA (determined) becomes more important.


Or just apply the limit to scopes and technological aids that give bonuses while aiming.

Which is closer to the wording on pg364 than pg372.

Guess it's going to come down to what's your view on Acc 0 & 1 weapons (but I find it hard to believe that even really inaccurate weapons can't get some benefit from a few seconds aiming)

[Erling]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Or just apply the limit to scopes and technological aids that give bonuses while aiming.

Which is closer to the wording on pg364 than pg372.

I believe it's a central idea of B364 and B372. Only gear-based aimed-fire bonuses are capped.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Erling

I believe it's a central idea of B364 and B372. Only gear-based aimed-fire bonuses are capped.

I think you're right, and ultimately it's how I've tended to play it before.

But I also quite like the idea of having to create a situation where you can then access aim bonuses on a Acc 0-1 gun by having to do stuff that adds to Acc (i.e mainly bracing or accurate arrows for bows etc). This will come up against the definition of "base accuracy" though.

However doing I can see that you'll get odd situations.

TBH Acc 0&1 hasn't come up very often for me

[Erling]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I think you're right, and ultimately it's how I've tended to play it before.

But I also quite like the idea of having to create a situation where you can then access aim bonuses on a Acc 0-1 gun by having to do stuff that adds to Acc (i.e mainly bracing

Bracing can increase effective skill even with Acc 0 weapon. As Kromm has clarified, bonus provided by bracing isn't subject to limitations from B364 and B372, and thus Acc 0 doesn't prevent you from gaining bracing bonus. So 3 seconds of aiming braced hangonne (Acc 0) with give you +3 total bonus (+1 from bracing, +2 from extra seconds).

Hell, you can even use tactical software with Acc 0 hand cannon and benefit from extra +1 (even without aiming)! :D It looks bizarre, but rules allow it. Kinda time-traveling commando equipped with software which helps him to use TL3 firearms.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Erling

Bracing can increase effective skill even with Acc 0 weapon. As Kromm has clarified, bonus provided by bracing isn't subject to limitations from B364 and B372, and thus Acc 0 doesn't prevent you from gaining bracing bonus. So 3 seconds of aiming braced hangonne (Acc 0) with give you +3 total bonus.

Hell, you can even use tactical software with Acc 0 hand cannon and benefit from extra +1 (even without aiming)! :D It looks bizarre, but rules allow it. Kinda time-traveling commando equipped with software which helps him to use TL3 firearms.

No I know about bracing not being subject to the cap I was thinking that bracing give +1 to Acc which in turn increases the cap on acc capped bonuses by +1

But we're in house rules here not RAW so it doesn't really matter.

[Kromm]

Here's the hierarchy of modifiers:

• Bonuses to skill. These apply whether or not you take an Aim maneuver. They include the +1 to skill from a laser, a reflex sight, or a computer sight; the +1 to skill from All-Out Attack (Determined); and any situational benefits the GM gives for, say, shooting at a backlit target. Such modifiers are not subject to any special limit. If, at the instant you pulled the trigger, the basic weapon were teleported away and replaced with another with a higher or lower intrinsic Accuracy score, you would still get the exact same skill bonus.
  
  
• Aiming Modifiers. These apply only if you take Aim maneuvers before you attack. They fall into three basic categories:
  
  
  • Weapon's intrinsic Acc. You may always claim your weapon's full Acc bonus after a turn of Aim. Some modifiers adjust this base value for the purposes of the next category:
    • Add any bonus for fine (accurate) or very fine (accurate), or subtract any penalty for a cheap or poorly maintained weapon.
    • Apply any +1 for match-grade ammunition. The previous modifier can qualify or disqualify you for this!
    • Apply any modifier for adding a pistol stock or collapsing a folding stock.
    
    
  • Bonus Acc from any aiming aids. You may claim additional Acc from scopes, laser rangefinders (not mere targeting lasers!), or any other gear that says it increases Acc rather than skill if you Aim and meet any special conditions attached (e.g., minimum turns of Aim to claim a full scope bonus). This bonus cannot exceed the previous one. This is the only place where a limit applies!
    
    
  • Bonus Acc from the Aim maneuver itself. You may claim bonuses to Acc from two or more turns of Aim, and from bracing as part of Aim (whether on a piece of cover or using a rifle sling, a bipod, or a tripod). This is not subject to any special limit, and is in effect a skill bonus that kicks only in after you Aim.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

TBH Acc 0&1 hasn't come up very often for me

Nobody ever throws anything? No knives, axes, rocks or hand grenades?

[vicky_molokh]

There is of course the special situation of shooting from a moving vehicles, in which case the combined bonus for Accuracy, Aim, bracing, and targeting systems cannot exceed the vehicle’s SR.
(I was about to consider whether my upcoming character is suitable for sniping an enemy ship's captain/crew, but with being mostly an Acc-oriented build, turns out this is not an option at ranges that are likely to be encountered.)