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Old 06-29-2019, 06:55 PM   #1
rafial
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Starting with a Mana Staff?

The rules say that characters who knows the Staff spell(s) can start with a pre-created Staff in hand. But I haven't been able to find anything in the rules that would allow a starting Wizard who knows Staff I and Staff II to start their staff with a non-zero Mana stat. (If there is a such a rule, please point me to it).

What do folks think a good exchange rate would be for starting IQ invested in building a Mana stat on a staff? Looking at the basic 1/500 ratio for talents & spells, I'm thinking 1 starting IQ invested gives 2 points of Mana stat for a starting staff.

What do the more experienced think about allowing this?
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:41 PM   #2
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

This is really no different than starting a D&D character at 3rd or 5th level (which I have certainly allowed in the past), but for some reason, the option seems less attractive for TFT.

I would not allow starting IQ to be exchanged for mana, however. If you want a character to be able to start with mana in their staff then simply give the players a pool of XP to spend as they wish on enhancing (or 'leveling-up') their characters.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 06-29-2019 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 06-29-2019, 09:54 PM   #3
rafial
 
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Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

er, I don't think it's quite the same. I'm talking about fitting the staff into the "budget" for a starting character. You'd be giving up talents or spells for the privilege.
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Old 06-30-2019, 05:14 AM   #4
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rafial View Post
er, I don't think it's quite the same. I'm talking about fitting the staff into the "budget" for a starting character. You'd be giving up talents or spells for the privilege.
That sounds like a fair way of doing it to me - effectively less 'experience' to spend on talents/spells. Simple. Job done! :)
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Old 06-30-2019, 10:42 AM   #5
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rafial View Post
The rules say that characters who knows the Staff spell(s) can start with a pre-created Staff in hand. But I haven't been able to find anything in the rules that would allow a starting Wizard who knows Staff I and Staff II to start their staff with a non-zero Mana stat. (If there is a such a rule, please point me to it).

What do folks think a good exchange rate would be for starting IQ invested in building a Mana stat on a staff? Looking at the basic 1/500 ratio for talents & spells, I'm thinking 1 starting IQ invested gives 2 points of Mana stat for a starting staff.

What do the more experienced think about allowing this?
That's how I'd do it except that if you invest more than one IQ point, I'd just calculate it at 500XP for each IQ point instead of 2 mana per point. No need to short-change starting characters on mana (i.e. 2 IQ gets you 5 Mana, not 4).
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Old 06-30-2019, 11:17 AM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

That makes logical sense... though it does add a compelling new option for wizards who plan don't mind knowing fewer spells.

e.g.

ST 8 DX 12 IQ 12
7 used spell/talent points, including 2 used to get Staff II.
5 points used for staff mana cashed in for 2500 mana-XP, 2400 spent for 12 staff mana,

So they have 20 points available to cast spells up to IQ 12, and a good casting DX, as a beginning point character.

Looked at another way, played like a typical wizard, this is a lot like a wizard starting with a 12-point powerstone (usually pretty expensive), or in arena duel situations, almost as bad as facing a ST 20 DX 12 IQ 12 44-point wizard duelist.

Yes, they are still easier to defeat/kill if they let themselves get hit compared to a ST 20 wizard before that wizard casts a bunch of spells, and yes, in an adventure situation, the ST 20 wizard will recover ST much faster, but the effect of 12 extra spell points is a huge advantage compared to starting wizards who don't have that, and they aren't really trading much for it in terms of basic combat effectiveness anyway. (In terms of versatility of character design, they definitely are, but this means this option encourages less diverse/interesting designs in favor of a few spells and lots of staff mana).

Just some things to keep in mind when considering whether to offer this option or not.

Last edited by Skarg; 06-30-2019 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 06-30-2019, 11:53 AM   #7
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
That makes logical sense... though it does add a compelling new option for wizards who plan don't mind knowing fewer spells.

<snip>

Just some things to keep in mind when considering whether to offer this option or not.
Good points. But it still feels very justifiable, and cool! I mean we were discussing holding back xp/IQ points for 2pt talents, this feels very similar...

Maybe just cap it out at 2 or 4 Mana?
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Old 06-30-2019, 11:57 AM   #8
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Looked at another way, played like a typical wizard, this is a lot like a wizard starting with a 12-point powerstone (usually pretty expensive), or in arena duel situations, almost as bad as facing a ST 20 DX 12 IQ 12 44-point wizard duelist.

Just some things to keep in mind when considering whether to offer this option or not.
What would be the in-world justification for some "new grads" being able to have, say, Staff V but not being able to have any mana? Especially since you can "learn to master your staff" to gain 2.5 mana in the same time it takes to learn 1 spell?
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Old 06-30-2019, 12:54 PM   #9
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
What would be the in-world justification for some "new grads" being able to have, say, Staff V but not being able to have any mana? Especially since you can "learn to master your staff" to gain 2.5 mana in the same time it takes to learn 1 spell?
I guess the same kind of reasons you might not allow starting characters to have Weapon Mastery?
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:54 PM   #10
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Starting with a Mana Staff?

As I've gone into many times in other threads, I have rather larger problems with 500 XP as the only way anyone learns a spell. I don't really have a picture I like of how that can make sense, even without considering staff mana.

However, it seems to me that the main justification already seems to be in the rules, whatever one makes of them. That is, it takes 200 XP to gain one staff mana. And starting characters generally have 0 XP. Apparently there is some way to learn spells and talents that does NOT involve 500 XP, which isn't explained how that works for pre-play PCs or NPCs, and that is how most people seem to learn most of their spells and talents, but not staff mana.

As such, I'd think the real and fairer tradeoff would involve XP, but then, as I first mentioned, you run into the peculiarities of having a highish fixed XP cost for things that are expected PCs will chose after gaining a fairly large amount of XP from successful adventuring.

That is, maybe the "above averageness" of 32-point starting characters is worth the equivalent of a normal average 30-point person having the 200 XP it would take them to get to 32 points. At THAT rate of conversion, you could start with one staff mana, at the cost of starting at 30 attribute points rather than 32. (And one might argue that's actually not as terrible as it seems. If you're a ST 8 wizard design who never intends to get any more ST, it might even be a reasonable choice.)
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