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Old 06-26-2019, 05:46 AM   #21
MikMod
 
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Default Re: Super Easy Divine Magic Rules

I'm also thinking about this mechanic...

The PC doesn't keep track of their divine xp, the GM does.

So players have no idea if they have a 'wish in the bank' or not. They call on their god to 'guide this arrow' and the GM rolls secretly and then says 'You missed' to exasperated swearing and other players laughing, or maybe 'You hit! Double damage!' At which point no one is quite sure whether a god intervened or not. The player doesn't know if they've 'used up' a wish or got lucky. The other players aren't sure if they just saw their smug holier-than-thou companion prove the existence of their god and maybe start thinking about joining the cult.

And in a final twist, having explained the whole 'divine xp' concept carefully to the players and having provided them with numerous bizarre cults to follow, it turns out behind the scenes: There. Are. No. Wishes.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:50 AM   #22
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Default Re: Super Easy Divine Magic Rules

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I'm not sure I follow? Buying wishes with xp already doesn't have demonic dependency.
ITL pg 143 "... all wishes originally come from one source: demons." Reading further, the clear implication is that lesser wishes come from lesser demons regardless of how you purchase them. That said, I'm sure that many GMs (including myself) ignore this element.

In my games, lesser wishes have been re-characterized as 'Hero Tokens'.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:31 AM   #23
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Default Re: Super Easy Divine Magic Rules

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
ITL pg 143 "... all wishes originally come from one source: demons." Reading further, the clear implication is that lesser wishes come from lesser demons regardless of how you purchase it. That said, I'm sure that many GMs (including myself) ignore this element.

In my games, lesser wishes have been re-characterized as 'Hero Tokens'.
"One man's God is another man's Demon."

I don't remember who said it, but it seems singularly apt at this point in the discussion. BTW, Tywyll -- clever use of wishes to create "divine magic" without all that "clerical magic" foolishness!
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Old 06-27-2019, 09:46 AM   #24
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Well, I certainly don't want my players buying wishes for cash under the completely irrelevant guise of 'it's my religion'. I want a faith to matter in terms of guiding the players actions, and the consequences that flow from that.
Those things are not exclusive. The best divine magic system in rpgs IMHO Runequest has an element of this, especially in the newest edition. And the gravitas of your cult is still very rich and essential to your rp.



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I also made no specific moral position superior. If your morals/god dictates that bloodshed is a good and desireable goal in life that's fine. But when you need to capture and interrogate that spy rather than cut his head off, your character will be facing a moral decision. Remember, your god is always watching, and they know if you deliberately looked the other way allowing another PC to subdue him. If I was GM and you did this you might well LOSE a whole lot of xp...
Barring berserker deities, even war gods understand the value of capturing and interrogating a foe. But we're getting lost in the minutiae now.

I'm all about their being difficult roleplay choices. On the other hand, I'm also all about there being an actual divine magic mechanic.
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Old 06-27-2019, 09:50 AM   #25
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Obviously it's personal choice and the style of campaign you run. Mine is pretty gritty and magic lite for the most part. I tend to err on the side of grubby realism and limits. I generally find player creativity goes up as the constraints get tighter, and for me, that's the fun of gaming. Winning by cunning, schemes and genius, rather than brute force or spending power.
I don't know, I have a hard time viewing a game where people can summon dragons as particularly magic-lite. Gritty, sure, the system is casually deadly, much like BRP. But RAW not particularly realistic.

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However, if you called on your god to 'protect me from my foes' surely that is your wish that turn. And it would be logical to have all the strikes simply bounce off you since the 'breaking of all weapons held by people in my front hexes' wasn't actually the wish. Maybe 'shatter their weapons' would be one decent wish though?
Logic and religion have nothing to do with each other!

What you are describing goes outside of what Lesser Wishes can do, and I'm trying to work within that framework. You said you could only pray for one explicit thing...I'm showing how you could pray for a single thing but represent the results of that prayer through burning multiple wishes.

That said, I'm all about broadening the scope of what you can accomplish via this system.
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Old 06-27-2019, 09:53 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
ITL pg 143 "... all wishes originally come from one source: demons." Reading further, the clear implication is that lesser wishes come from lesser demons regardless of how you purchase them. That said, I'm sure that many GMs (including myself) ignore this element.

In my games, lesser wishes have been re-characterized as 'Hero Tokens'.
Fair enough. But since this system is reusing a mechanic to represent something else, we can dispense with that (as you have) and I certainly would. Though I suppose you could have a world in which demons are simply the servants of the Gods...that 'demon' just means 'being from another plane' or something.
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Old 06-27-2019, 10:10 AM   #27
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BTW, Tywyll -- clever use of wishes to create "divine magic" without all that "clerical magic" foolishness!
It's been brought to my attention that Shoug was the person who originally came up with this idea. So, my sincere apologies to Shoug for mis-crediting the concept!
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:41 AM   #28
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Those things are not exclusive. The best divine magic system in rpgs IMHO Runequest has an element of this, especially in the newest edition. And the gravitas of your cult is still very rich and essential to your rp.
Ah Runequest! What a brilliant game - and I totally agree, at least in our old edition, the best divine magic system ever. I think this is one reason why I love the xp for wishes idea - it mirrors the RQ attribute point for Runespell sacrifice.

But I don't remember RQ having a cash for spells mechanic? I remember you having to give up a part of your hard won character - and that was for one set spell, not a very flexible wish.

Plus the cults were so woven into every aspect of the world that they were central and not just 'bolted on'. I guess that's my worry with any kind of pay-$10-and get-a-bit-of-a-wish mechanic, it is sooooo easy to abuse. (I should make it clear that in my campaign you cannot swap xp for wishes as per RAW).



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Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
Barring berserker deities, even war gods understand the value of capturing and interrogating a foe. But we're getting lost in the minutiae now.
Well it wasn't supposed to be minutiae - just one simple example of how the requirements of your cult (and I did detail those in another post) would impact on your game choices and how following your god could conflict with the wishes of the party, or even what might be (selfishly) considered 'best' for your character. That's not minutiae, that was my main point. Without that kind of demand from your god, without some set of moral values - right and wrong - which might contradict your calculated 'best choice', there is no 'cost' to being religious - its just a bonus where you get wishes for cash or doing what you were going to do anyway.


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Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
I'm all about their being difficult roleplay choices. On the other hand, I'm also all about there being an actual divine magic mechanic.
Me too! I just thought the wishes mechanic was great! Wishes are not very well defined, nor are they totally reliable since they depend on (in this case) a deity to 'perform' the miracle for you. So there is plenty of room for GM moderation and some alignment of wish and god - so, for instance, if you worship a healing god it is unlikely your 'paid for' wish that your arch nemesis Kylen contract a rather horrible skin disease is going to be fulfilled.

For me, I can take the xp for wishes idea, plus some cult/religion descriptions and I can start playing - that is all the mechanic I feel I and my players need. We already have guidance in terms of Lesser Wishes and their contrast with Greater Wishes to have a feel for how powerful they should be. And the players and I will have a clear idea what their religion expects and therefore how and when they are likely to earn the special xp - but it will be given by the GM like other experience.

I am also really interested in hearing how others might implement the idea, but this is House Rules, so really it is up to me! (and you :)

For instance, it was great for you to mention holy days, because that isn't something I had particularly thought about. Though my fix will be to hand the job to the first 'worshipper' of a religion to flesh that out! :D



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Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
I don't know, I have a hard time viewing a game where people can summon dragons as particularly magic-lite. Gritty, sure, the system is casually deadly, much like BRP. But RAW not particularly realistic.
I'm sure we all have our own flavour of TFT. Mine does not involve the regular summoning of dragons. Actually, even considering a story like Lord Of The Rings - what magic was there:
  • Fireworks
  • A light on the end of a staff
  • A wizardly duel which looked mostly like magic fist?
  • A sword that lights up when orcs are nearby
  • A nice mail shirt (not even sure that was magic)
  • A ring that makes you invisible but also draws all the forces of Hell down on you!
  • Some bread that lasts longer than normal

Seriously - even LOTR didn't have a great deal of magic - certainly compared to all the running around, horse-riding, fighting, more running, swords, poisoning, fighting again. Most of the magic was magical beasts and creatures - the wraiths, the Nazgul's steeds, the Orc and Uruk Hai, Ents, Giant Spiders/Eagles and what-have-you.

RAW is one thing - our campaigns are another. I mean, we are hanging out in the House Rules section after all! :)



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Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
Logic and religion have nothing to do with each other!
Maybe, though you made the opposite argument earlier! :P

In any case its not religion that needs to be logical, for me, its the mechanics of the game world that I am implementing which need to have an internal logic and be as free of exploits as possible - otherwise both the players and the NPCs will have reamed those exploits for everything they are worth - and that might distort the shape of the world in ways which I don't want it to.

(If there is really any one true 'God' in TFT who decides how the world works, then it is certainly the GM)


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Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
What you are describing goes outside of what Lesser Wishes can do, and I'm trying to work within that framework. You said you could only pray for one explicit thing...I'm showing how you could pray for a single thing but represent the results of that prayer through burning multiple wishes.

That said, I'm all about broadening the scope of what you can accomplish via this system.
Yes, of course we will have different ways of implementing it - I just didn't feel for my campaign that allowing 6 wishes and a sweeping blow in one turn is something I would want to see happen. If the NPCs can do it then so can the players. Do you really want your carefully crafted and top NPCs in the world to be so vulnerable? One capricious player could destroy a whole lot of careful planning and work in a matter of a few seconds.

To me, asking for a couple of weapons to be broken is fair enough for one wish. I think you are mapping that onto: "what would it take to break three weapons? Well that's three rolls of 18, so that's three wishes". I'm working from: "does it sound reasonable that a lesser demon would break three weapons for a wish. It doesn't sound too powerful, I mean, break a jug/break a weapon, whats the difference right? Yeah I will allow it. (with a save for magic ones)"

I showed you how I would implement this - but its not right or wrong, its just my way of doing it - so yeah absolutely do it differently if it suits your world, your characters and your players. Some people will have super powers in their fantasy games - I will not. That's the GMs decision - they craft the world. The players then decide if they want to play in it! :)
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Old 06-27-2019, 01:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: Super Easy Divine Magic Rules

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
It's been brought to my attention that Shoug was the person who originally came up with this idea. So, my sincere apologies to Shoug for mis-crediting the concept!
uwu. Thank you, I was quite happy to see my name pop up in this thread. Life is about the small stuff.

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Yes. I want to avoid any specific mechanism. It's up to the GM.

Currying favor with a deity isn't something I see as trivial or easy. I certainly don't want players gaming this. Who really knows what a god sees as devout in any case? I want my religious players to follow the tenets of their religion, sure, but that on its own won't mean a steady stream of wishes. As Shoug said, it's in those difficult moments, when your characters have to choose between a very attractive base desire or a nobler, more moral path, even if that makes their lives more difficult, that this comes into play at its strongest. Can your player put something else, someone else, before themselves? Can they give up something? Can they make a sacrifice? A real sacrifice that affects them, not just stabbing a sheep for $10? It's hard. And it should be, I think. Overall most players will not think the 'reward' of a wish is worth this difficult path, IMO.
I'm so glad you like the idea! This is also a very crucial element of the system to me. No matter what your god values, Wish XP rewards should only be granted for roleplaying difficult decisions. You have to specifically eschew a more materially practical option in favor of the spiritually enriching one. You get no points for coincidental overlap, unless maybe the action was an incredible feat in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
I'm also thinking about this mechanic...

The PC doesn't keep track of their divine xp, the GM does.

So players have no idea if they have a 'wish in the bank' or not. They call on their god to 'guide this arrow' and the GM rolls secretly and then says 'You missed' to exasperated swearing and other players laughing, or maybe 'You hit! Double damage!' At which point no one is quite sure whether a god intervened or not. The player doesn't know if they've 'used up' a wish or got lucky. The other players aren't sure if they just saw their smug holier-than-thou companion prove the existence of their god and maybe start thinking about joining the cult.

And in a final twist, having explained the whole 'divine xp' concept carefully to the players and having provided them with numerous bizarre cults to follow, it turns out behind the scenes: There. Are. No. Wishes.
I really like the idea that the GM is tracking all of the wish XP, but it would not go over well with my players if they didn't get to lay their hands on the yoke of fate at any point. I would simply track the wish XP in secret, and have my players indicate an amount of regular XP with which they'd be willing to part for a lesser wish. Then, when the total of their wish XP and "spare" regular XP meets the cost of a lesser wish, I would tell them (the next time they pray), "You're prayer suddenly escalates into glossolalia and overwhelming religious ecstasy. When it is done, you have suffered two fatigue and can feel the warm glow of a lesser wish embedded in your spirit." This flavor would obviously be different for a blood god or some other strange god, but the idea is the same. During a moment of spiritual exploration and meditation, your god reached out and blessed you for your service. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Me too! I just thought the wishes mechanic was great! Wishes are not very well defined, nor are they totally reliable since they depend on (in this case) a deity to 'perform' the miracle for you. So there is plenty of room for GM moderation and some alignment of wish and god - so, for instance, if you worship a healing god it is unlikely your 'paid for' wish that your arch nemesis Kylen contract a rather horrible skin disease is going to be fulfilled.

For me, I can take the xp for wishes idea, plus some cult/religion descriptions and I can start playing - that is all the mechanic I feel I and my players need. We already have guidance in terms of Lesser Wishes and their contrast with Greater Wishes to have a feel for how powerful they should be. And the players and I will have a clear idea what their religion expects and therefore how and when they are likely to earn the special xp - but it will be given by the GM like other experience.

I am also really interested in hearing how others might implement the idea, but this is House Rules, so really it is up to me! (and you :)

For instance, it was great for you to mention holy days, because that isn't something I had particularly thought about. Though my fix will be to hand the job to the first 'worshipper' of a religion to flesh that out! :D
I personally have no interest in a dedicated thaumaturgical magic system. To me, buying lots of wishes is thaumaturgy enough! I'm also not thinking of this ability as a third class option (apart from Fighter and Wizard). I just don't think the game needs that, and this solution holds on to the mysticism and grandeur that should characterize miracles.
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Old 06-27-2019, 03:12 PM   #30
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Default Re: Super Easy Divine Magic Rules

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"You're prayer suddenly escalates into glossolalia and overwhelming religious ecstasy. When it is done, you have suffered two fatigue and can feel the warm glow of a lesser wish embedded in your spirit."
Oooo. I wonder if other devout people might be able to 'sense' the presence of divine blessings, like 'detect holy power'? So that you might be especially aware when you are in the presence of one who has walked far with their god. Could be quite an effect when meeting new people (and trying to influence them).
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