For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option? - Page 4

Tywyll · 06-25-2019, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldwolf

The other problem with them answering on the forum is it :

A. Creates a cloud of "official" rules clarifications and changes that is floating around someplace on the internet. This results in no one knowing what the actual rules are at any given moment.

Most modern, professional companies can still manage to handle this though by having stickied threads that contain the errata until such a time as enough is generated to produce a pdf or website. The lack of this feedback makes a company look lacking compared to others.

Quote:

B. It creates a group of "elite" players who regularly read the forums and who think they know the right way to play. A sure way to alienate most players.

What? What kind of situations are you gaming in?

Quote:

To my way of thinking, discussion on the forum is a good thing but official rule clarifications and changes should be published as a downloadable pdf and, perhaps, as an errata and clarification update available through the TFT Helper.

I do agree that changes should be published, but you acquire those changes by answering questions.

JustAnotherJarhead · 08-06-2019, 07:51 PM

All this talk about how Steve and company can't come on forums and make rules clarifications is straight ********.

CODEX 2020

Get it done. It's your game Steve, iron out the damn wrinkles, lord knows we've all paid good money for it.

Just make it so.

Skarg · 08-07-2019, 12:26 AM

Steve has commented on TFT Discord that he knows he needs to write some errata.

Steve Plambeck · 08-07-2019, 01:36 PM

First, with apologies to the OP, you cannot discuss the Defend and Dodge "options" separately, because they are two sides of the same, solid coin.

They are for all purposes one and the same single option that can always be taken if:

1. You aren't taking another action instead, and
2. Have moved half your MA or anything less

And there's nothing more to it than that. The names "Dodge" and "Defend" are only labels for how far you moved on the turn you took this option (note I'm still calling it singular), which is actually inconsequential information used for color; you either moved over half MA and can't do it, or moved less and you can do it. Engaged and Disengaged cease to have any meaning, because you can take this option either way.

Just use this longer name for the option, and you can be done with it. It's the
"I'm-not-attacking-you-but-you-have-to-roll-4-dice-to-hit-me" option.
Just move half your MA or less (which of course includes any 1 hex Shift), and say "I'm-not-attacking-you-but-you-have-to-roll-4-dice-to-hit-me."

You can go back and re-read every place in the rules where Steve Jackson says "Dodge" or "Defend", substitute that phrase for either word in any of those sentences in any of the editions of any of the manuals, and you should see there is no ambiguity at all.

Don't even mention the word "Defend" -- it did confuse a few of my old players, so we banned the use of the word at the table, and no one was ever confused again.

RobW · 08-08-2019, 02:59 AM

A small development -- I wrote up the argument here as a Hexagram submission. SJ has read it, and said it was interesting and that the logic was reasonable. So we'll see!

xane · 08-11-2019, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

The names "Dodge" and "Defend" are only labels for how far you moved on the turn you took this option (note I'm still calling it singular), which is actually inconsequential information used for color; you either moved over half MA and can't do it, or moved less and you can do it. Engaged and Disengaged cease to have any meaning, because you can take this option either way.

I disagree, aside from the difference in avoiding a Missile/Thrown Weapon/Spell (Dodge) and a Melee attack (Defend), the Dodge option should only be for figures that were disengaged at the start of their turn.

This is a great discussion, because the root issue is the confusion between "time to move" and "time to act", and in addition to the latter the "time to act" is not necessarily when your turn comes in the adjDX sequence either (your time to act could be when someone attacks you and you choose to Defend).

MikMod · 08-11-2019, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Just use this longer name for the option, and you can be done with it. It's the
"I'm-not-attacking-you-but-you-have-to-roll-4-dice-to-hit-me" option.
Just move half your MA or less (which of course includes any 1 hex Shift), and say "I'm-not-attacking-you-but-you-have-to-roll-4-dice-to-hit-me."

This confuses me.

There are two separate options Dodge and Defend, that happen to share a movement requirement and part of their effect. But they are not interchangeable. One only helps against melee attacks and one only helps against missiles. And once you have opted for one, you have chosen NOT to take the other. I don't see how 'combining' them into 'one option' helps at all, and it would - imo - seem to lead to people thinking that if they take the option then they are protected against BOTH melee and missile - which they clearly are not RAW. Or it might lead them to think it only applies to that one attack...

MikMod · 08-11-2019, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xane

I disagree, <snip> the Dodge option should only be for figures that were disengaged at the start of their turn

I don't see the logic of this.

If you are engaged by someone behind you who runs off, and then an enemy archer decides to fire at you, you're saying you would be unable to dodge - even though you haven't moved, you're not engaged or even under any other threat, you have no available target, have not acted, and are in open space. You're just going to stand there while the archer sticks one in your chest?

Clearly, to me, the intent is that you cannot dodge missiles if you are in the middle of a melee. So that is why (dis)engagement is mentioned under the option.

TBH if a PC engaged by a goblin with a stick wanted to dodge the fire coming from his three mates with poisoned arrows I think I would let her under common sense house ruling, and just give the stick guy a +4 DX.

xane · 08-11-2019, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikMod

If you are engaged by someone behind you who runs off, and then an enemy archer decides to fire at you, you're saying you would be unable to dodge - even though you haven't moved, you're not engaged or even under any other threat, you have no available target, have not acted, and are in open space. You're just going to stand there while the archer sticks one in your chest?

"at the time they move", then.

Skarg · 08-11-2019, 12:11 PM

If you make figures commit to Dodging during Movement, then it makes Dodging rather lame unless you know you won't have anything better to do that turn, which is almost never the case for the side that moves first.

If someone moves first and commits to Dodge, the other side can just ignore that person, or move people up to attack them with hand weapons etc.

It's a good rule if you want Dodge to be a very inconvenient thing to do. I don't think that missile attacks need to be any better than they already are in TFT.

08-06-2019, 07:51 PM	#32
JustAnotherJarhead Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Cali	Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option? All this talk about how Steve and company can't come on forums and make rules clarifications is straight ********. CODEX 2020 Get it done. It's your game Steve, iron out the damn wrinkles, lord knows we've all paid good money for it. Just make it so.

08-07-2019, 12:26 AM	#33
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option? Steve has commented on TFT Discord that he knows he needs to write some errata.

08-07-2019, 01:36 PM	#34
Steve Plambeck Join Date: Jun 2019	Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option? First, with apologies to the OP, you cannot discuss the Defend and Dodge "options" separately, because they are two sides of the same, solid coin. They are for all purposes one and the same single option that can always be taken if: 1. You aren't taking another action instead, and 2. Have moved half your MA or anything less And there's nothing more to it than that. The names "Dodge" and "Defend" are only labels for how far you moved on the turn you took this option (note I'm still calling it singular), which is actually inconsequential information used for color; you either moved over half MA and can't do it, or moved less and you can do it. Engaged and Disengaged cease to have any meaning, because you can take this option either way. Just use this longer name for the option, and you can be done with it. It's the "I'm-not-attacking-you-but-you-have-to-roll-4-dice-to-hit-me" option. Just move half your MA or less (which of course includes any 1 hex Shift), and say "I'm-not-attacking-you-but-you-have-to-roll-4-dice-to-hit-me." You can go back and re-read every place in the rules where Steve Jackson says "Dodge" or "Defend", substitute that phrase for either word in any of those sentences in any of the editions of any of the manuals, and you should see there is no ambiguity at all. Don't even mention the word "Defend" -- it did confuse a few of my old players, so we banned the use of the word at the table, and no one was ever confused again. __________________ "I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right."

08-08-2019, 02:59 AM	#35
RobW Join Date: Mar 2018	Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option? A small development -- I wrote up the argument here as a Hexagram submission. SJ has read it, and said it was interesting and that the logic was reasonable. So we'll see!

08-11-2019, 12:11 PM	#40
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option? If you make figures commit to Dodging during Movement, then it makes Dodging rather lame unless you know you won't have anything better to do that turn, which is almost never the case for the side that moves first. If someone moves first and commits to Dodge, the other side can just ignore that person, or move people up to attack them with hand weapons etc. It's a good rule if you want Dodge to be a very inconvenient thing to do. I don't think that missile attacks need to be any better than they already are in TFT.