Tech Level Confusion

[maximara]

Originally Posted by maximara

Cheirometer TL(5+1): Better known as the Bertillon System of Criminal Identification system it served the same function as fingerprints by "the meticulous measurement and recording of different parts and components of the human body." It was largely replaced by fingerprinting though it still survives in the form of mug shots. (Steamtech pg 58)

Originally Posted by weby

For TL 5+1, yes it might require super science, but given the high precision of measurements and computing power we have today it should be possible to construct a very good such if we did not use fingerprinting. So a TL 5+3 should definitely be able to have such without super science.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Isn't it just straight up TL8 biometrics?

The problem with both the Bertillon System of Criminal Identification system and is simpler cousin the Cheirometer is they are based on the superscience assumption that no two people can have very similar measurements. That assumption was proven wrong in 1903 with inmates Will West and William West. Not only did they have similar names but their Bertillon measurements were nearly identical. But their fingerprints were totally different.

A TL(5+3) Cheirometer would have the same problem as its TL(5+1) predecessor and was limited to the hands. TL8 biometrics by contrast covers far more then simply hand geometry: fingerprints, palm veins, face recognition, DNA, palm print, as well iris, voice, and retina recognition.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem with both the Bertillon System of Criminal Identification system and is simpler cousin the Cheirometer is they are based on the superscience assumption that no two people can have very similar measurements.

I'd call that "unfounded" rather than "superscience." Both systems would work perfectly well for negative identification - demonstrations that Person A is not Person B. It's just that they aren't trustworthy for positive identification: demonstrations that B is the same person as A.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which brings up the tar baby of where does the line between TLx, TL(x+y), and TLz (where z=x+y) reside.

Is is accurate to call the Nautilus TL(5+1)^ or should it be TL6^ because it uses a cinematic version of already existing technology?

Incredibly better batteries are one very sound way to diverge technology from what we actually had. If that technology had been distributed to the world, it would have significantly changed the design of automobile and aeroplane engines.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which brings up the tar baby of where does the line between TLx, TL(x+y), and TLz (where z=x+y) reside.

Is is accurate to call the Nautilus TL(5+1)^ or should it be TL6^ because it uses a cinematic version of already existing technology?

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Incredibly better batteries are one very sound way to diverge technology from what we actually had. If that technology had been distributed to the world, it would have significantly changed the design of automobile and aeroplane engines.

The problem is the specs in Steampunk are off the wall over the top gonzo: 1.8 billion kW/s or 1.8 tW/s which works out to be 6480 tW/h. This is more energy then is produced by any single powerplant on the planet!

Then there is another issue: how long the batteries last under load. Yes, Nemo says he get his supply of sodium from a base that uses coal power but he seems to take months before that sodium needs replenishing. (The Design of Jules Verne’s Submarine Nautilus)

Even our TL8 batteries are not able to supply voltage for weeks much less months at a time as Nemo's batteries can.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

The technology may not transfer well to automobiles and aeroplanes. The weight of these cinematic batteries is not given but odds are they are large and heavy.

Of course they're large and heavy. They're propelling a big submarine. But if the technology to build batteries that can propel such a vessel for months at tremendous underwater speeds, there is no reason to expect that the technology to build batteries to propel a car or a plane for many hundreds of miles can not be developed. And it wouldn't require any refinement whatsoever to to use those sub batteries to propel a train cross country.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Of course they're large and heavy. They're propelling a big submarine. But if the technology to build batteries that can propel such a vessel for months at tremendous underwater speeds, there is no reason to expect that the technology to build batteries to propel a car or a plane for many hundreds of miles can not be developed. And it wouldn't require any refinement whatsoever to to use those sub batteries to propel a train cross country.

Yes, and that's what you get if you view the batteries realistically, in terms of "what would this technology enable us to do?" And that's what would be needed for them to figure into the TL at all.

On the other hand, (a) Verne was portraying the batteries as the invention of a solitary genius (in the same spirit as Shelley's portrayal of animation of dead tissue, or Wells's of antigravity). So they didn't figure into the TL in the first place. But also, (b) it does not appear that Verne had done any calculation of energy density or the like, or of power requirements for submarine propulsion. So he probably didn't realize how radical a boost in power storage and output was implied by his story.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Yes, and that's what you get if you view the batteries realistically, in terms of "what would this technology enable us to do?" And that's what would be needed for them to figure into the TL at all.

On the other hand, (a) Verne was portraying the batteries as the invention of a solitary genius (in the same spirit as Shelley's portrayal of animation of dead tissue, or Wells's of antigravity). So they didn't figure into the TL in the first place. But also, (b) it does not appear that Verne had done any calculation of energy density or the like, or of power requirements for submarine propulsion. So he probably didn't realize how radical a boost in power storage and output was implied by his story.

Yes obviously it has no effect on his world's technology level. Verne makes sure of that by sinking the damn thing at the end of the book. But the question was whether the thing itself would qualify as divergent technology by the standard of our history, and yes, it would. A world war I or II U-boat technician would look at the powerplant and the environmental system (not to mention the metallurgy) and say "what the heck is that?"

As for Verne, sure he didn't do any calculation of energy density...but neither did I. But Verne wasn't an idiot. He would have understood that battery technology that could propel a large object underwater for months at a top speed so high that "ramming speed" was an effective weapon against metal hulled vessels is also something that could be used to propel trains and horseless carriages for a long time at any speed that could be safe on a 19th century road or set of rails. He just didn't care because like almost any good techno-thriller author he destroys it once its narrative purpose is done so he doesn't have to explain how this obviously revolutionary development didn't revolutionize diddly.

But you could do a "steampunk" reality which is divergent from both our history and from the Steam Boy kind of steampunk because it's almost all about electric motors. So we have electric cars, electric planes, magnetically levitating trains tazers, and for that matter Tesla "death rays"...much of it of course fueled by dirty, dirty coal burning electric power plants which are the only place you'll find actual steam engines outside of railway museums. And with battery technology that great long distance power lines and alternating current never catch on. Instead they just ship electricity in batteries. Call it "Arronax". It would be 5+1 to 5+2 but a different divergence from the steampunk stereotype.

Which brings us back to the subject of the TL 8+2 realities and how they can be differently divergent from each other. At the start of Ultratech they actually give examples of "Technology Paths" which would produce divergent technologies if they were present in the same universe. If you have 4 spacefaring cultures each "TL 10", but one is Cyberpunk, one is High Biotech, one is Safe-Tech, and one is Psitech, then as far as each is concerned the others are TL8+2, but each a different TL8+2.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

And with battery technology that great long distance power lines and alternating current never catch on. Instead they just ship electricity in batteries. Call it "Arronax". It would be 5+1 to 5+2 but a different divergence from the steampunk stereotype.

Or maybe a catchy X-punk name: Batterypunk? Sodiumpunk? Vernepunk, perhaps, but that would be better for in-era, not further down the techpath.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Or maybe a catchy X-punk name: Batterypunk? Sodiumpunk? Vernepunk, perhaps, but that would be better for in-era, not further down the techpath.

To clarify, "Arronax" is my thought for an Infinity designation for the reality, since the technological revolution happens when Professor Arronax comes back having learned the secret of how to make the batteries. A genre name like "electropunk" is only really necessary when there are multiple examples of the thing being referred to.

[Anthony]

I would note that a lot of "X+Y" TLs are superscience of one sort or another, because they tend to be "the future as imagined at TL X", and there's usually a reason that imagination was wrong. Sometimes it's because we found something better than anyone imagined, but often it's because the thing they imagined was impractical or impossible for reasons that were either unknown or ignored at TL X.