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Old 02-28-2015, 06:30 PM   #1
Johnny Angel
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Default Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

I'm currently working on updating a character sheet, and I ran into some confusion about when exactly the bonus from a Talent is added when figuring out skill prices and whether or not a skill qualifies for a bonus.

This lead me to consider the following questions:


1) Do talents count for figuring out how well you know a skill and what bonuses you get from skill level?


For example, let's say I have Outdoorsman. Outdoorsman adds to skills such as Survival. That part of how a talent works is straightforward, easy to understand, and I completely get how it works. Where I have some uncertainty is in whether that bonus is added at the end or before the end. I'll try to explain what I mean below:

Would my skill listing look like this?

Camouflage IQ/E - IQ+1 16 [2]
........includes: +4 from 'Outdoorsman'

or would it look like this?

Camouflage IQ/E - IQ+5 16 [2]
........includes: +4 from 'Outdoorsman'


For most skills it doesn't matter. However, there are some skills in which it does matter. For example, things like Boxing say that you get additional benefits if you know them beyond a certain level. (I'm aware there aren't talents which add to Boxing; it was simply an easy to find example in the book.)

The way that the Talent Advantage is worded seems to imply that your attribute (not skill training) is treated as higher. That appears to support the first way I listed a skill above.

On the other hand, the example characters Baron Janos Telkozep and Professor William Hedley in the back of the Characters book have their character sheets the second way. The second way also seems to make the pricing of a talent more reasonable/favorable when compared to how much a full attribute level would cost.


2) How are Talents figured into the equation when defaulting a skill from a different skill?

Let's say I have the following...

Per 13

Survival (Woodlands) Per/A - Per+4 17 [2]
........includes: +4 from 'Outdoorsman'

Land specialties of Survival default to each other at -3. Depending upon when I add in the bonus from the Talent, some of the other rules work differently. There appear to be two ways to handle what comes next.

a) If I default from the level provided by the talent, that would give this character a default for Survival (Plains) of 14; that would be attribute+1 for an average skill. It would cost 4 points (the difference between the current level and the next level) if I wanted Survival (Plains) at 15.

b) If I take the bonus out of the skill first, I start by looking at skill 13 for Woodlands. 13 minus 3 is 10; 10 would be attribute-3 and below what I can default from. Adding back in the Talent bonus still gives skill levels of 17 and 14 respectively, but the results are different. For one point, I can have Survival (Plains) at 16.

How did I get one point for 16? As an average skill, one point puts the skill at attribute-1; that would be Perception-1; 12 for this character. 12+4 = 16.

B seems to make the most sense since it's more favorable to the player and because it remains consistant with how skill pricing works. A would make a lower skill level cost more than a higher skill level.
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Old 02-28-2015, 06:44 PM   #2
Johnny Angel
 
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

Further thoughts:

What causes me more confusion is when I compare the wording of the Talent advantage (which states that "This effectively raises your attribute scores...") to the discussion of Relative Skill Level found on page 171 of Basic Set: Characters.
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Old 02-28-2015, 06:59 PM   #3
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

Talent acts like specialized DX or IQ only with regards to skills listed. It doesn't count for defaults off those skills unless the other skills are also listed.

I would prefer if the boost was added before everything. But I believe authors have stated it gets added last, allowing whatever benefits count for Stat+X.
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:02 PM   #4
Johnny Angel
 
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Talent acts like specialized DX or IQ only with regards to skills listed. It doesn't count for defaults off those skills unless the other skills are also listed.

I would prefer if the boost was added before everything. But I believe authors have stated it gets added last, allowing whatever benefits count for Stat+X.
So, the second way of writing out the skill for #1 and B for #2?




edit: Thematically, I could see the first way of writing out the skill being right because it makes sense that natural talent and training aren't the same thing. However, the second way of writing out the skill makes talent pricing far more favorable.

Still, it creates an odd dynamic when comparing something like DX 17 versus DX 13 with 4 levels of talent.

Last edited by Johnny Angel; 02-28-2015 at 07:09 PM. Reason: edit
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:09 PM   #5
Phantasm
 
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Talent acts like specialized DX or IQ only with regards to skills listed. It doesn't count for defaults off those skills unless the other skills are also listed.

I would prefer if the boost was added before everything. But I believe authors have stated it gets added last, allowing whatever benefits count for Stat+X.
As I recall, it gets added last because it doesn't count towards defaults. If you have a Talent that gives a bonus to Stealth and then default Camouflage from Stealth, you base your Camouflage off what Stealth would be without the Talent. This prevents you from effectively applying the talent twice to the same skill.

That said, to answer the OP, I believe the "official" description of how skill listings are described is akin to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Angel
Camouflage IQ/E - IQ+5 16 [2]
........includes: +4 from 'Outdoorsman'
... although I usually put the "16" after the "[2]", often separated by a hyphen, but that's because that's the most important piece in most situations, and I look to the end of the line for it.
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:19 PM   #6
Johnny Angel
 
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
As I recall, it gets added last because it doesn't count towards defaults. If you have a Talent that gives a bonus to Stealth and then default Camouflage from Stealth, you base your Camouflage off what Stealth would be without the Talent. This prevents you from effectively applying the talent twice to the same skill.

That said, to answer the OP, I believe the "official" description of how skill listings are described is akin to:

... although I usually put the "16" after the "[2]", often separated by a hyphen, but that's because that's the most important piece in most situations, and I look to the end of the line for it.

That's what I thought. There are a few areas of the rules which were worded in such a way that I was unsure if I was doing it right.

So, to figure out defaults and the prices of Relative Skill levels, you take the bonus out; adding it back in after pricing things.

For whether or not you get bonuses from a Relative level, you look at what your end result is after adding in the bonus to your skill and comparing that number to the underlying attribute.

Is that right?

...and does that same logic apply when considering bonuses from other things?


On a side note, considering things the other way has some interesting interactions with how Magery and Magic Rituals interact.
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:25 PM   #7
shawnhcorey
 
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

Attribute + bonus - difficulty + level

IQ:10 + 4 - 0 + 2 = 16 [2]
(+4 from Outdoorsman)

But what I'm not clear on is Relative Level. According to the book, B171, the Relative Level would be 6. (skill level - attribute). Or do they mean the skill level is 2, for a RL = 2?

Or take another example: Survival: Per/A:

Per:10 + 4 - 1 + 2 = 15 [2]
(+4 from Outdoorsman)

Would the RL be?
  1. 5 (final:15 - Per:10)
  2. 2 (training level:2 for 2 points)
  3. 1 (no bonus:11 - Per:10)
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:34 PM   #8
Johnny Angel
 
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnhcorey View Post
Attribute + bonus - difficulty + level

IQ:10 + 4 - 0 + 2 = 16 [2]
(+4 from Outdoorsman)

But what I'm not clear on is Relative Level. According to the book, B171, the Relative Level would be 6. (skill level - attribute). Or do they mean the skill level is 2, for a RL = 2?

Or take another example: Survival: Per/A:

Per:10 + 4 - 1 + 2 = 15 [2]
(+4 from Outdoorsman)

Would the RL be?
  1. 5 (final:15 - Per:10)
  2. 2 (training level:2 for 2 points)
  3. 1 (no bonus:11 - Per:10)


Based on some of the responses I've gotten and also based on the example characters in the back of the book, the Relative Level appears to be the different between (Training + Talent) and Attribute.

For example, if you had Per 10 and spent 2 points on Survival, you'd have Survival 10 for Per+0.

If you also had Outdoorsman 4, you would add that at the end for Survival 14 and a Relative Level of Per+4.

While that does seem to partially conflict with how the book describes some things, my own perception is that that is the intent. (I think.)
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:37 PM   #9
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

I don't think it's as consistent as it could be. When doing TG, I remember looking up the wording of Talent and stating soemthing like RSL doesn't include it, and then being corrected that it did. I'm not sure there's a hard-and-fast rule I can point to.
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Old 02-28-2015, 09:43 PM   #10
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Talents: Do they boost attributes or skills?

The write up in Characters calls it a 'skill bonus'.
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