Best ranges weapon for rogue

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by weby

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I have not actually ever seen anyone select the sling though several people have thought about it, mainly due to the low resulting skill unless you put a lot of points into it.

I've never actually seen the throwing knife specialist work out. This goes all the way back to the first character I made in the fall of '79. He had throwing knives hidden in his boots and that's where they stayed. The situation where throwing those knives was a good option never came up.

I have seen slings used when during obvious missile combat situations. Even if you miss it's still cheap and you weren't going to be doing anything else useful.

For me it's the damage. For ST 10 that's 1D-2 (average 2) for the knives and 1D+1 for the sling bullet. You might be -2 for Sling Skill but you don't have to be -5 for TA(Face).

There is also the range problem. 1/2D for the knife is only 8 yards and that's for the Large Knife. If you tried to go for the smaller and cheaper Dagger it's 5 yards and another -1 to damage. You'd be wanting to catch your targets exactly at 8 yards and then spending the next Turn drawing a melee weapon or doing a Move to get back out of range. 5 yards is probably too close for those options and you don't want to throw a Dagger beyond 1/2D.

You might not want to put a lot of pts into Sling but you can start slinging that cheap ammo at 60 yards.

It's a niche weapon but it's one for a fairly common niche that actually comes up.

[mr beer]

If you can afford Heroic Slinger and Weapon Master, then make sure you have effective ST: 13 for the damage bump, the humble sling is suddenly pretty great for a non-fighter, firing out 2d+3 piercing per second.

[weby]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I've never actually seen the throwing knife specialist work out. This goes all the way back to the first character I made in the fall of '79. He had throwing knives hidden in his boots and that's where they stayed. The situation where throwing those knives was a good option never came up.

Here our experiences vary a lot. I have played and seed couple others play people where the ranged option was knives. Not all of the characters can be said to have been knife experts though. But throwing knives gave them a solid option.

My knife thrower character was primary a "face" with some minor utility/persuasive/crowd control magic in a low point city campaign. She carried about 20 knives/daggers all over the body. There as a fairly low DX character with only few points to use for weapon skills. So the choice for ranged option was knives and for melee smallsword for the higher parry from retreat bonus. The resulting skills were all in the 12-13 range. The group "fighter type" had maybe a skill of 14.

Overall we ended up in quite many fights against gangs and such where the persuasive skills failed and the knives showed themselves to be quite useful, at those ranges(below 10 yards and mostly at about 5 yards). We had someone shoot at us from the roof of some building and there they did not help, but given that the shooter was in the same skill as we were the 30(or was it 50?) yard distance attack was not very dangerous.

Overall I did hit quite often with the effective skill being around 10 and fast draw allowing me to throw about 2/3 of rounds and enemy dodges being about 8. The damage was not huge but quite many gang members did not need more than one or two hits to run away.

In another campaign we actually had a "knife expert" in that it was a swashbuckler type with weapon master that also included thrown knives. Cannot remember all the details, but I do remember quite many enemies with knives stuck from them, several instances where some enemy could not run away as they got a knife in their back so they slowed down to 1/2 move. And a memorable enemy "boss" who was ranting and raving to his followers to fight us and who was then a target of a move and attack by the swashbuckler and received a thrown knife in the eye. We were all stunned that it actually worked.. :)

Then there was this eye knife to eye character. Who was all about knives had maybe 30 to 40 different knives, always asked the GM if the loot included knives and so on. He has both melee and ranged knife skills, weapon master knives, extra attack, offhand training, Targetted attack to eyes and so on. He would do things like run towards enemies barehanded fast-draw two knives, throw them at 2-3 yard away(just outside enemy melee range) to eyes(they were usually parried/blocked/dodged but when not that was devastating), draw two more, throw one more and then continue to close combat with one enemy.

I have seen slings used when during obvious missile combat situations. Even if you miss it's still cheap and you weren't going to be doing anything else useful.

For me it's the damage. For ST 10 that's 1D-2 (average 2) for the knives and 1D+1 for the sling bullet. You might be -2 for Sling Skill but you don't have to be -5 for TA(Face).

Yeah the damage is a problem, but fine knives do become affordable fairly soon in most campaigns helping a bit. Also with knives you are firing about twice the speed.

There is also the range problem. 1/2D for the knife is only 8 yards and that's for the Large Knife. If you tried to go for the smaller and cheaper Dagger it's 5 yards and another -1 to damage. You'd be wanting to catch your targets exactly at 8 yards and then spending the next Turn drawing a melee weapon or doing a Move to get back out of range. 5 yards is probably too close for those options and you don't want to throw a Dagger beyond 1/2D.

You are forgetting that the knives are actually really low bulk weapons so a move and attack is actually viable if you have some space to move. Basically a melee character following you will have to roll against 9 and you can often get your skill to higher by throwing from about 2 yards and then continuing to move. It is not perfect but worked quite well for my knife thrower.

Actually the sling has a really low effective range in low point games as effective skill below 8 is just waste of time and for effect you would want to roll against 10 at least. Getting that sort of skill from sling is really hard.

You might not want to put a lot of pts into Sling but you can start slinging that cheap ammo at 60 yards.

It's a niche weapon but it's one for a fairly common niche that actually comes up.

Except that 60 yards you really do not want to attack with a low point sling skill given that at 2 points and DX 11 your skill is 10 and the range penalty is -9, so at maximum aiming you start at effective skill 3 and crit fail on 13.

In our games we see about effective skill10 as the minimum for assessing any real usefulness, though obviously there are situations where you will use things at slightly lower. But the 10 for sling requires an effective skill of 13 to be better than the 1/2d of knives(about 7 yards). Even a high DX character in low point games(DX 12) you would need 8 points in the skill and that is a major investment.

But yes, if you start at DX 14+ then a sling might be a viable weapon even with low investment.

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by weby

Of course the real answer is a blaster pistol(just ask Han Solo), but somehow most GMs do not allow those in fantasy games.

I’d say the best answer is surprise (ask Han about Greedo). If you can fast-draw a hidden knife and throw it in the same turn, you can easily attack someone who had momentarily turned their back and wasn’t expecting an attack. If you can cinematically throw it under a table into the vitals of a threatening bar patron, all the better.

[roguebfl]

Thrown Knives are the Worst choice in the game after shurikens. But many people do so as a form of substance choice. (thrown stones can be even been argued as better than throwing knives)

Thrown Axe is all ways around a better choice if you look at thrown weapon.

Throw axe like the knife can be use in melee and thrown both, and like the knife can be carried open and be seen as some carrying a daily tool not a weapon looking for a fight.

the only edge the the throwing knife has over the throwing axe is in holdout concealability.

However as a the sling a even better choice, not only can it be concealed as a belt, and use random rocks in a pinch. Meteoric Iron sling stone don't have the "whole arrow needs to be made of it" issue.

[edk926]

Honestly, when I think of rogues, I picture darts more than anything else. Small, light, concealable, easy to tip with poison. Useless in melee combat though.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by edk926

Honestly, when I think of rogues, I picture darts more than anything else. Small, light, concealable, easy to tip with poison. Useless in melee combat though.

Just remember combat darts aren't the little thing that you play in the pub with, but reather big like the controversial "lawn darts" game.

the one in the pub use the stats for shuriken.

[Kromm]

Look into boomerangs.

As GURPS Martial Arts suggests, the GM may allow you to use Fast-Draw (Sword) for those. If so, then every turn you can pitch a weapon that is inexpensive ($20) and light (1 lb., like a large knife), relies on an Easy skill (Thrown Weapon (Stick)), and has excellent range (×6/×10, so 60/100 for the average person), decent accuracy (Acc 2 vs. 0 or 1 for most hurled weapons), modest Bulk (Bulk -2, like a large knife), and good damage (not cutting or impaling, true, but swing-based). It's also a freakin' stick, and therefore readily available in most low-tech settings.

If you're really gung-ho, think about ST + Striking ST of 13+ alongside Weapon Master (Boomerang) [20]. And if your GM is nuts, try to go all The Road Warrior and carry bladed ones that do cutting damage . . .

Boomerangs have a roguish "feel," too. It's easy to imagine rogues modeled on bushrangers using them.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Look into boomerangs.

As Kromm has pointed out in the past the real hunting (aka damage dealing) ones don't return to lik the toy, however it not too much of cinematic stretch to let them return on a miss

I also like use the Bola too as it Flail in melee was well and entangling thrown weapon

[Colarmel]

In DFRPG I designed a swashbuckler for a player who puts a high priority on hitting every turn. He had 19 ST, and threw sais. He also had WM which included sais. He dropped a giant ape in one turn with a sai to the eye.

Throwing knives are fantastic IF you have realistic expectations. THR weapons are always a mistake if you're not good enough to target high-value body parts. And if your GM will allow Fast-Draw on a thrown SW weapon, use that instead. But if your GM is strict about Fast-Draw, throwing a knife while you run away or close to melee is not a bad way to go. Especially of you're strong enough to have throws do more damage than harsh language. Keep in mind though that most knives are strength capped to 18 ST.