Social Strata and Magic Ability

[AlexanderHowl]

How is Enchant an unbalanced ability, especially is a setting where magic is common or ubiquitous? It requires a decent amount of prerequisites and enchantments take a lot of time to produce. For example, a broadsword with Accuracy+3 at Power 15 costs 5,000 energy, which is an investment of nearly 14 years, and it will not function in low or no mana regions. Conversely, a noble who takes that much time to self train broadsword would have learned Broadsword at DX+25 and their skill functions everywhere.

For a social strata being linked to magic ability, you could require that characters need a minimum Magery equal to the desired Rank/Status before they can purchase the desired Rank/Status. Characters without Magery would effectively have Magery 0 for determining their maximum Status. For example, a king would need Magery 7 before anyone would give them the respect due to a king.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

How is Enchant an unbalanced ability, especially is a setting where magic is common or ubiquitous?

In a lot of ways it increases balance by giving affluent or felonious non-mages access to magic.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by weby

So, why not just limit those magics? Make them unavailable, guild secrets, or such.

This strikes me as key. If, say, Earth to Stone can destroy the economy by making gold as common as iron or copper, the problem is in the spell, not who casts it, and the Duke of Milan making stacks of the stuff is as problematic as a hedge witch doing it. I'd start by making the most problematic stuff unavailable.

That said, if you want to associate magic with class in an Asian-themed setting for use with GURPS magic, there's an appropriate historical mechanism to use: the civil service. For large chunks of Chinese imperial history, the truly powerful class was the well-educated. The body of people from whom powerful officials was chosen, from local magistrates to top government ministers, was selected by a series of hellishly competitive academic examinations. Just about anybody could try to join the civil service and land a cushy government appointment, but most failed in tests where a single character out of place could mean the difference between more failure and a life of power and prestige. Of those who passed, the vast majority were the ones whose families were wealthy enough to afford a lifetime of tutoring to get them to the point of passing against massive and highly motivated competition. So there was certainly a class element, but it was predicated on initial good fortune or other favorable conditions, not hereditary talent.

In this case, replace "Confucian philosophy" with "magic." The wannabe movers and shakers spend their lives studying to pass a series of exacting examinations, learning vast catalogs of spells, hidden lore, alchemy, and so on rather than spending the time enchanting items. The culture of "education = success" means that lots of people want and even try to learn magic, if not for themselves then to help advance their children's educations, and it's at least possible for the talented poor to rise to the top, though the odds are as ever against them. So it's not a hereditary aristocracy breeding for magical talent, which carried sketchy eugenic implications with it, but rather that the aristocracy selects for a) raw talent and 2) the wealth required to extensively train that talent. This ends up giving you a setting where a lot of people know a bit of magic, but the ones most capable of using magic to change things are busy with politics instead (and, since they're not really trained in politics and administration, probably doing a poor job of it and using magic just to maintain the status quo).

(Naturally, there's a Pyramid article about the imperial Chinese civil service exams. I think it's in the third Low Tech one.)

[Refplace]

FYI since some people have missed it,the setting is s far described as Powers (SE mostly, if not exclusively) only not using GURPS Magic.
One thing I would add is bloodline advantages so certain lines have limited college SE. So every family can cast full Sorcery but many are inherently better at one element or other type. That helps structure the families and Houses.

Also Wildcards for family lines that include wildcard points as usable for a certain element or style of casting. That can include chi powers of the same element and thus encourage certain styles for certain families.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by isf

Sorcerous Empowerment- inherited, restricted to nobility

Mostly, yeah.

Originally Posted by isf

Spell-as-advantage- 1% of non-nobles

Yup.

Originally Posted by isf

Chi Powers- learnable by anyone

Yes. Anyone can be taught chi powers and harness their golden cores.

Originally Posted by isf

Bastard children of nobles need to be addressed if they inherit SE.

They do. The Sorcerous Empowerment is a function of heritage, not society.

Originally Posted by isf

I would suggest making more advanced sorcery restricted to specific bloodlines and a factor in noble breeding.

That's not a bad idea, but I'll need to carefully consider it as it has the possibility of creating unbeatable foes with the right combination.

Originally Posted by isf

What about nobles who lose their position through war or politics?

Again, a function of heritage, not society. They'd keep their abilities.

Originally Posted by isf

How common are chi powers?

Hmm. I had not considered that. Let's say as common as peasant magic - so 1 in 100 have spent the time to learn such abilities. Or perhaps 1 in 500. Yeah, I like that better.

Originally Posted by isf

How are you modeling alchemy? Who can do it?

Through a taoist alchemy system I created a while back. External alchemy can be taught to anyone, but internal alchemy is more difficult.

[isf]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Again, a function of heritage, not society. They'd keep their abilities.

Yes, but now there are non-nobles with SE, I would imagine that there are plenty of groups that would be interested in that for good or bad.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I've always disliked any kind of permanent enchantment spells. I solve this by not having them.

There are enchanted objects in my world, but they are almost always unique and fairly powerful. They are normally created by a mage who is willing to give up his life to create some kind of object that is important to him. This is why we might see a dragon-slaying sword, but not a housefly-slaying sword, even though the one that kills houseflies is more useful.

That's cool, but not really what I was asking.

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

First off, is there is a reason that your setting must have Enchanting? If not, you could simply make it impossible. But it sounds like you have already decided that you want to include enchanting in your setting.

This setting has magical items. What I'm trying to discern is if I should have lots of magic items (anyone can create them with time) or few (only the nobility, rich, and specialized enchanters can afford to buy or make them.

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

Enchanting is problematic because it effectively allows High Tech - and in some cases superscience - devices in a low tech setting. Compounding this issue is that the usual presumption is that enchanted artifacts are practically indestructible, thus creating a large second hand market.

I mean that's one way to view it. Sorcery requires you expend unspent character points to make items quickly, otherwise you're spectral forging them and that takes time.

Also, it's a high fantasy campaign, not grim and gritty. Having magical items is kind of par the course.

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

To maintain a Low Tech feel, a quick and dirty way would be to apply high tech level cost multipliers for enchanted items that emulate high tech level equipment. The enchanters know they have a monopoly on these things, and they will force you to pay through the nose to get it.

DF does this. I do not really seek to emulate it all that much.

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

I would definitely dispose of the assumption that enchanted artifacts last forever. Instead, I would make it so that enchanted artifacts accumulate quirks over their existence until finally breaking. In other words, enchanted artifacts can age and die. Flawed works with onerous quirks might be available at a substantial mark down from antique dealers.

That's an interesting thought. Magical items need to make aging rolls just like living beings. Hmmm.

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

This seems reasonable. I would also expect commoners to focus on trade spells. Combat spells would be rare unless there are dangerous foes that require such spells to deal with them - and even then I would expect most commoners to prefer trade spells that don't require them to risk their lives. On the other hand, combat spells might be near universal in states where the military is the only source of affordable magical training for commoners. It all depends on your setting assumptions.

I'm considering making battle magic something you can really only learn in the military or by special teachers. And even then not everyone has the discipline for it.

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

Going by Sorcery rules this would lead to commoner casters who know a spell or two, but are unable to improvise or learn new spells quickly. I think this is a good flavor and works well mechanically for NPCs. This may be the result of not having enough innate ability to develop further or not being able to afford the training to develop your innate abilities, or both.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Emerald Cat

I would be reluctant to allow PCs to build sorcerers without Sorcerous Empowerment. Having to pay full cost for their spells would cause these sorcerers to advance slower than the other sorcerers in the party who did pay for SE. And that is prone to lead to player frustration.

So far I have *zero* player characters with Sorcery. I do have three players with latent sorcery, but that's it.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Relative cost is important here though. If it takes an aristocrat five years of spare time to make a magic item, its going to be expensive, and its going to be uncommon. If you really want to limit magic items to noble families, you could make them so they only work for the blood-line of the creator. Magic items are inherited, not purchased or commissioned. You can leave a possibility open for them being able to be "won" as well, if you want.

It's not so much that I want to restrict who can use them, but I want to create a magic rich world without tons of enchanted items.

Originally Posted by ericthered

You can still have them buy new spells using alternate ability rules. They just won't be able to improvise.

I think restricting them to a single element or the elements of the spells they started with is probably how I'll go with that. So they can learn wood spells if they have shape wood, but not metal spells since they don't have that.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Who else but the noble elite has the free time and resources to devote to learning let alone actually utilizing lengthy enchantment magics?
"Normal" people have stuff that needs to be done like farming or otherwise providing for their families.

True.

Originally Posted by copeab

Sounds like a good way for nobles to further oppress the peasants. And far from a commoner with magical talents being able to move up in status, I would expect them to be tracked down and executed as a potential threat to the ruling class.

Not really, commoners with magic potential keeps the crops growing, the mines open, etc. You don't throw away a specialized tool like that.

Originally Posted by weby

So, why not just limit those magics? Make them unavailable, guild secrets, or such.

This is where my thinking is headed, yeah.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

It's not so much that I want to restrict who can use them, but I want to create a magic rich world without tons of enchanted items.

Make the ability to enchant items a fluke - only one in a hundred or one in a thousand can do it. Maybe a genetic ability - there's one noble family that can enchant items and they are required by law to supply everyone equally. Which of course means they are overworked as heck, but also rich as Croesus. There's a social code that says they do not take part in politics - and maybe there are factions that want to overturn this code.

And then operationalise this as an Unusual Background. 25 to 50 points should be plenty.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Steal from Harry Potter. Families that breed successfully for magic would be pure-bloods. Other mages would be "mudbloods." Although I might use halfbreeds as the local term. Commoner mages (people with magery born to commoners) would only be allowed to marry into the noble orders. In practice, they'd marry into noble families that are only semi-successful in breeding for magery.

That's not a bad thought either.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

How is Enchant an unbalanced ability, especially is a setting where magic is common or ubiquitous? It requires a decent amount of prerequisites and enchantments take a lot of time to produce. For example, a broadsword with Accuracy+3 at Power 15 costs 5,000 energy, which is an investment of nearly 14 years, and it will not function in low or no mana regions. Conversely, a noble who takes that much time to self train broadsword would have learned Broadsword at DX+25 and their skill functions everywhere.

For a social strata being linked to magic ability, you could require that characters need a minimum Magery equal to the desired Rank/Status before they can purchase the desired Rank/Status. Characters without Magery would effectively have Magery 0 for determining their maximum Status. For example, a king would need Magery 7 before anyone would give them the respect due to a king.

This is not something I want to discuss in this thread (whether Enchant itself is unbalanced). Please take it elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

This strikes me as key. If, say, Earth to Stone can destroy the economy by making gold as common as iron or copper, the problem is in the spell, not who casts it, and the Duke of Milan making stacks of the stuff is as problematic as a hedge witch doing it. I'd start by making the most problematic stuff unavailable.

I was going to make creating wealth simply impossible. Creating anything really. The style of magic I have in mind can manipulate the elements, it cannot create them. Transformation possible, but some things cannot be transmuted. Gold being the metal of immortality cannot be messed with in this way. Also gives me a reason to have gold suits of armor (and maybe jade) as a way to thwart enemy metal mages.

What else would you say is problematic?

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

That said, if you want to associate magic with class in an Asian-themed setting for use with GURPS magic, there's an appropriate historical mechanism to use: the civil service. For large chunks of Chinese imperial history, the truly powerful class was the well-educated. The body of people from whom powerful officials was chosen, from local magistrates to top government ministers, was selected by a series of hellishly competitive academic examinations. Just about anybody could try to join the civil service and land a cushy government appointment, but most failed in tests where a single character out of place could mean the difference between more failure and a life of power and prestige. Of those who passed, the vast majority were the ones whose families were wealthy enough to afford a lifetime of tutoring to get them to the point of passing against massive and highly motivated competition. So there was certainly a class element, but it was predicated on initial good fortune or other favorable conditions, not hereditary talent.

Currently I have a feudal system for nobles and a bureaucracy for the civil service. The nobles own the land and holdings, while the civil service effectively administers it.

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

In this case, replace "Confucian philosophy" with "magic." The wannabe movers and shakers spend their lives studying to pass a series of exacting examinations, learning vast catalogs of spells, hidden lore, alchemy, and so on rather than spending the time enchanting items. The culture of "education = success" means that lots of people want and even try to learn magic, if not for themselves then to help advance their children's educations, and it's at least possible for the talented poor to rise to the top, though the odds are as ever against them. So it's not a hereditary aristocracy breeding for magical talent, which carried sketchy eugenic implications with it, but rather that the aristocracy selects for a) raw talent and 2) the wealth required to extensively train that talent. This ends up giving you a setting where a lot of people know a bit of magic, but the ones most capable of using magic to change things are busy with politics instead (and, since they're not really trained in politics and administration, probably doing a poor job of it and using magic just to maintain the status quo).

I'm going to use this pretty much wholesale. I still want my nobles trying to create an ultimate caster, but I like this.

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

(Naturally, there's a Pyramid article about the imperial Chinese civil service exams. I think it's in the third Low Tech one.)

Can you point me to where this is. I cannot find it.

Originally Posted by Refplace

FYI since some people have missed it,the setting is s far described as Powers (SE mostly, if not exclusively) only not using GURPS Magic.
One thing I would add is bloodline advantages so certain lines have limited college SE. So every family can cast full Sorcery but many are inherently better at one element or other type. That helps structure the families and Houses.

Not a bad idea.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Also Wildcards for family lines that include wildcard points as usable for a certain element or style of casting. That can include chi powers of the same element and thus encourage certain styles for certain families.

The current problem with wildcards is that the Qi attribute may be priced too low. I'm starting to think it might be better off at 15 or 20 level instead of 10. I'm still thinking about it.