Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-15-2010, 09:43 PM   #21
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
It seems like in any game that doesn't feature Blindness or Dark Vision as a theme, NV is significant. I agree that in some games it's so significant, it applies to just about every scene. But I've never played a GURPS game in which the presence or absence of NV didn't make or break party success on multiple occasions. In fact, it strikes me as one of the most universally helpful advantages.

I'm inclined to call it 3/level and to remove Dark Vision as a separate advantage (i.e. make it 10 levels of NV).
I don't remove Dark Vision (because it actually does stuff Night Vision does not), but I do think 3/level is pretty reasonable. This is after all substituting for a Work in the Dark technique for a lot of skills at once. I generally allow you to buy 3 levels.

And I have played in games where it didn't make much difference, because there weren't many fight scenes, and even fewer of them were in the dark, but I'll admit those are a minority.

Parenthetically, I think that for many (dis)advantages allowing +/- 1 increments, which is how we ended up with 1/level costs on Night Vision, is a mistake. I rather like the 4e version of Resistant, which limit you to buy +3 (enough to be reliably noticeable) +8 (not quite perfect) and immune, and wish that thinking had been applied more broadly. Though I might have gone with 2,5,9,infinity instead of 3,8,infinity. There's a group that would scream, but actual concepts are closer to a little, some, a lot, a whole lot than they are to exactly 7.4%, so most of their protests about how they can't design *exactly* the character they want are nonsense. What they really mean is it's harder to munchkinize to exactly the breakpoint numbers.
__________________
--
MA Lloyd
malloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 10:27 PM   #22
Edges
 
Edges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GMT-5
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
And I have played in games where it didn't make much difference, because there weren't many fight scenes, and even fewer of them were in the dark, but I'll admit those are a minority.
The game I'm playing now has about one fight every 10 sessions or so and darkness penalties have made a big difference in the campaign. Exploring caves, finding herbs in the moonlight, tracking around the clock to catch-up to the guy, seeing the shady fellow in the back of the dimly lit bar, etc. While point-wise, the combat benefits of NV take the lion's share, in many games that's not where its real strength lies.

Interesting point about "increments." 'Something to think about.

What exactly is your objection to making a NV level 10 for 30 points give the benefits of Dark Vision (presumably with the Color enhancement which already costs 30 points by RAW)? There's some precedent for that sort of thing elsewhere (Obscure and the reduced oxygen benefit of Metabolism Control off the top of my head). It seems to me the reason to have a Dark Vision advantage is because it's so useful, it obviously isn't only worth 10 points (i.e. NV 10 if NV is 1/lv). But if NV is 3/lv, why not say level 10 gives the benefits of DV?
Edges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2010, 10:39 PM   #23
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
There's a group that would scream, but actual concepts are closer to a little, some, a lot, a whole lot than they are to exactly 7.4%, so most of their protests about how they can't design *exactly* the character they want are nonsense. What they really mean is it's harder to munchkinize to exactly the breakpoint numbers.
So you have issues modeling things on a sliding scale?

You might as well be saying that you don't think game should allow buying attributes by steps, instead of +1 you just want people to have ST 10, ST 14, ST 18, etc.

As for GMs who allow normal human PCs to have more than +1/+2 levels of Nightvision, they may as well be allowing the PCs to buy DR, Sonar, Invisibility or any other Supernatural powers, since that's what Nightvision at the 3+ level is for humans.
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 02:06 AM   #24
Lupo
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Torino, Italy
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
I think if I charged 3/level for NV, my players would still be eager to buy it up.

Although having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if Kromm hopped on this thread with a solid argument to the contrary. I'd actually be more surprised if he didn't. : )
Defending NV cost would be a challenge even for Kromm :)
__________________
Lupo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 11:03 AM   #25
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
So you have issues modeling things on a sliding scale?
It's still as much a sliding scale as it was, the units are just further apart. You do realize +/-1 increments are not continua either right? I can't buy ST 11.65 either.

And yeah, I think a game that rated positive attributes in only 4 levels would be perfectly workable, though most games are probably closer to 6.
__________________
--
MA Lloyd
malloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 11:23 AM   #26
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
So you have issues modeling things on a sliding scale?
I don't in general, but there's certainly nonlinear benefits to NV, because the frequency of the situation affected is variable. Increasing NV from 0 to 1 is +1 to DX/Vision in any situation with a darkness penalty of -1 or greater (fairly common). Increasing NV from 8 to 9 is +1 to DX/Vision in any situation with a darkness penalty of exactly -9 (rather rare), so there isn't a strong reason for the two costs to be the same.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:00 PM   #27
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Night Vision is listed as a mundane physical advantage. I expected to see some listed limit to how many levels a normal human can have, but there is none. Should there be one, or are there people who really can see perfectly clearly in almost total darkness?
That would be contradictory as sight is the detection of light. However night is not total darkness.

Japanese lookouts in world war two were picked for their ability to see at night. So we know night vision exists.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:08 PM   #28
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
That would be contradictory as sight is the detection of light. However night is not total darkness.
Night vision 9 allows vision with no penalties on a moonless overcast night.

It is worth pointing out just how much difference a single level of darkness actually is. If you want to fit the normal scale of darkness (ranging from the point at which indoor sports have problems, at below a few hundred lux, which is a plausible -1, to an overcast moonless night sky at around 0.0001 lux) you're getting a total -8 penalty over a brightness range of about a million, which is a factor of 5.6 per level, or -1.25 per x0.1 illumination. I actually prefer a factor of -1.5 per x0.1 illumination, because it works more conveniently with the range/speed chart, but either way a single level of night vision allows operating with about 1/5 as much light.

Last edited by Anthony; 07-16-2010 at 03:27 PM.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:15 PM   #29
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
Ze'Manel Cunha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
It's still as much a sliding scale as it was, the units are just further apart. You do realize +/-1 increments are not continua either right? I can't buy ST 11.65 either.

And yeah, I think a game that rated positive attributes in only 4 levels would be perfectly workable, though most games are probably closer to 6.

If the penalties at at the +/- 1 level, then it makes perfect sense to be able to modify them by +/- 1.
__________________
Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. -RAH
Ze'Manel Cunha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2010, 03:19 PM   #30
roguebfl
Dog of Lysdexics
 
roguebfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
Default Re: How realistic is Night Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Night vision 9 allows vision with no penalties on a moonless overcast night.
Which is no as dark as a cave (total darkness) but very low light
__________________
Rogue the Bronze Firelizard
Gerald Grenier, Jr. Hail Eris!
Rogue's Weyr
roguebfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
night vision

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.