Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Not by design, but by accident or intervention, as in a split-brain patient. Which hemisphere has the original identity?

I've wondered about that. What would happen if I were split right down the middle, and almost instantaneously had a near exact robotic duplicate affixed to each biological half? Would each fully aware individual be me, half me, or two new unique people?

Biologically, I think the evidence points to us not being single CPUs, but numerous interconnected thinking "modules" loosely woven together by feedback loops and illusions of identity/unity.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I've wondered about that. What would happen if I were split right down the middle, and almost instantaneously had a near exact robotic duplicate affixed to each biological half? Would each fully aware individual be me, half me, or two new unique people?

Evidence from split-brain people is that the two would differ from each other in behavior, but would have the same biographical memories. The behavior differences can be severe, and can make for divergent expressions of those memories, like the left half answering correctly what they received for their last birthday ("A tie.") and the right half unable to speak but producing a detailed abstract pen-and-ink drawing reminiscent of the pattern on their favorite tie, or barking "cup!" perhaps because they missed breakfast that morning and are distracted.

[jeff_wilson]

A fascinating philosophical webcomic treatment of the Identity Question:

http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1

I thought there were some typos but it turned out to be a fine point in the Categorical Imperative, and there seems to be four or five other schools of thought represented.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Evidence from split-brain people is that the two would differ from each other in behavior, but would have the same biographical memories. The behavior differences can be severe, and can make for divergent expressions of those memories, like the left half answering correctly what they received for their last birthday ("A tie.") and the right half unable to speak but producing a detailed abstract pen-and-ink drawing reminiscent of the pattern on their favorite tie, or barking "cup!" perhaps because they missed breakfast that morning and are distracted.

This is a short profile of a girl who had a hemisphere removed to treat chronic seizures that endangered her life, and was able to recover normal function.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MKNsI5CWoU

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

My one mental block is that large sections of humanity would believe that copies are the same things as originals.

This isn't actually the case. The setting has various legal systems treating Ghost Mind Emulations and different (non-xoxed) instantiations of infomorphs as legally the same person as the original in different ways, but that's not really the same thing as believing they are actually the same.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This isn't actually the case. The setting has various legal systems treating Ghost Mind Emulations and different (non-xoxed) instantiations of infomorphs as legally the same person as the original in different ways, but that's not really the same thing as believing they are actually the same.

Well, not legally speaking, but people do seem to think of them as the same. I suspect this is a simple case of familiarity: if you know someone, they get ghosted, you meet the ghost and it seems like the same person, you decide that ghost and original are the same. People have made far more dubious logical leaps.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well, not legally speaking, but people do seem to think of them as the same. I suspect this is a simple case of familiarity: if you know someone, they get ghosted, you meet the ghost and it seems like the same person, you decide that ghost and original are the same. People have made far more dubious logical leaps.

There's nothing in the setting that requires people to not acknowledge that a copy is a copy though, which seems to be Flyndaran's problem.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There's nothing in the setting that requires people to not acknowledge that a copy is a copy though, which seems to be Flyndaran's problem.

At the risk of going all over again:
The contradiction seems to be perceived because some people join the discussion already having decided that people/individuals/etc. are unique. But the idea behind uploading is that all Much Ados About Nothing are Much Ados About Nothing, all Hamlets are Hamlets and so on.

[Flyndaran]

Copying and deletion of original sapients requires that many in setting believe as Vicky does.
Our opinions about the rationality of such a belief aren't going to change in this thread or any other. I merely mentioned it as seeming absurd for such large sections of humanity to believe something so disconnected to "obvious reality".
Not that in-obvious reality isn't ever true.
I just don't think that such philosophical ideas could ever sweep the globe as quickly or as thoroughly as they do in THS merely 1 century in the future.
Philosophical in that there can be no evidence proving such a belief.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I merely mentioned it as seeming absurd for such large sections of humanity to believe something so disconnected to "obvious reality".

I think in this case the problem is different perspectives about what is 'obvious'. Given that this thread even exists, I think what you consider obvious is not, in fact, obvious.