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Old 11-16-2015, 08:29 AM   #1
wmervine4
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Noblesville, Indiana, USA
Default GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

I may be misunderstanding something about how the enchantment rules work, but it seems to me that the Scroll spell is uneconomical due to the fact that it takes an entire day per energy cost of the spell being scribed and the assumption is the scroll is worth $33/day. This seems consistent with the pricing for Slow and Sure enchantment at $33/day; however, it also assumes the scroll is being written per the Slow and Sure method. Is there no Quick and Dirty option for scrolls?

From a world building perspective, it makes me question the value of any enchanter that would try to make a living by scribing scrolls as opposed to enchanting items. If there was no incentive for scribing scrolls, why would the first mage ever have even created the Scroll spell to begin with?

The issue I can see is that even a lone enchanter that doesn't know Recover Energy can invest 30 energy points into a magic item everyday using Quick and Dirty enchantment, which seems superior to Slow and Sure enchantment. If I had to choose between enchanting a piece of jewelry with the Alarm spell for 60 energy points over the course of two days, or scribing a scroll with the Find Direction spell which costs 2 FP to cast over those same two days, why would I ever choose the scroll? If we assume magic items cost $33/energy point, the Alarm-enchanted jewelry item would be worth $1,980 while the Find Direction scroll would be worth a paltry $66.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious here. Does anyone have any ideas?
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:23 AM   #2
Jerander
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmervine4 View Post
I may be misunderstanding something about how the enchantment rules work, but it seems to me that the Scroll spell is uneconomical due to the fact that it takes an entire day per energy cost of the spell being scribed and the assumption is the scroll is worth $33/day. This seems consistent with the pricing for Slow and Sure enchantment at $33/day; however, it also assumes the scroll is being written per the Slow and Sure method. Is there no Quick and Dirty option for scrolls?

From a world building perspective, it makes me question the value of any enchanter that would try to make a living by scribing scrolls as opposed to enchanting items. If there was no incentive for scribing scrolls, why would the first mage ever have even created the Scroll spell to begin with?

The issue I can see is that even a lone enchanter that doesn't know Recover Energy can invest 30 energy points into a magic item everyday using Quick and Dirty enchantment, which seems superior to Slow and Sure enchantment. If I had to choose between enchanting a piece of jewelry with the Alarm spell for 60 energy points over the course of two days, or scribing a scroll with the Find Direction spell which costs 2 FP to cast over those same two days, why would I ever choose the scroll? If we assume magic items cost $33/energy point, the Alarm-enchanted jewelry item would be worth $1,980 while the Find Direction scroll would be worth a paltry $66.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious here. Does anyone have any ideas?
I believe Q&D enchanting requires all the energy for the task be available at once. You cannot spend half of the 60 points one day, then recharge, then finish the next day.
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Old 11-16-2015, 09:43 AM   #3
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

While I don't typically delve into the default Magic system, I do know that Slow and Sure Enchanting costs more per point of energy than Quick and Dirty. In Dungeon Fantasy, for example, items enchanted using Quick and Dirty are only worth $1/point, and those using Slow and Sure are worth $20/point, although that latter cost is for second-hand items - presumably they'd be worth $33/point new. Over there, scrolls show up in DF4: Sages, and are worth at least $20/energy, more if cast at higher than skill 15.

Also, as Jerander notes, Quick and Dirty requires that you have access to all the energy at once. If you could do it in steps, nobody would spend the time for Slow and Sure!
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:37 PM   #4
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

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Originally Posted by Jerander View Post
I believe Q&D enchanting requires all the energy for the task be available at once. You cannot spend half of the 60 points one day, then recharge, then finish the next day.
As others have noted this is the case. Q&D requires a total time of 1 hour per 100 energy but all the energy must be available at the last second.

As for scrolls, no there is no alternate procedure. Scrolls are made a special case by their rules text.

Then there's the question of what use scrolls are and the general answer appears to be very little. At most here might be the scenario where an old but feeble mage writes a scroll of a very advanced spell and gives it to a younger and more vigorous mage to read at the climax of an adventure.

The actual numbers don't crunch very well on this. A spell that is "beyond" a young mage is probably no more than 5 cp in prereqs beyond him. The more common limit on the ability to cast "advanced" spells appears to be energy cost.

So no, I haven't come across a scroll in Gurps play and I haven't placed one as a GM. Written magical treasures tend to be textbooks for learning spells in my experience.
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:41 PM   #5
wmervine4
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

...

And now I'm starting to see why people dislike the default enchanting rules. Lone enchanters can't do squat in this system unless they do Slow and Sure enchantment, but in that scenario, they would take 50 full days to enchant a stick that will tell them the direction of the closest source of ONE type of metal (Seek Earth, 50 energy to enchant, seeks only one specific type of earth).

I think I missed the fact that Quick and Dirty required all the energy to be available up front because of the simple fact that even minor enchantments, like Seek items, requiring less than 100 energy points to enchant are grossly out of reach for a typical mage with access to only 10-15 FP when fully rested. I just naturally assumed that the mage could slowly dump in energy over time as it became available without disrupting the enchantment, but that appears to be a false assumption.

So, by RAW, it's either, I have massive amounts of energy (from assistants or whatever) to help enchant things nearly instantly with Quick and Dirty, or I take the long, Slow and Sure route which could take literally thousands of days to enchant the most powerful items (potentially reduced by lots of assistants, but still).

Even a sword enchanted with Accuracy +2 with 5 enchanters working together would take 200 days to enchant, and there is a possibility of failure...

It hardly seems like enchanting is a worthwhile lifestyle if it's going to take five people dedicated full time to a project for over half a year just to produce a single sword that is only a little more accurate than a balanced sword that would be vastly cheaper and faster for a low tech smith to make. And after all that time, there is still a chance that somebody messes up and botches the whole job making the entire 200 days a complete waste. Yikes.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:04 PM   #6
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

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Originally Posted by wmervine4 View Post
...

but in that scenario, they would take 50 full days to enchant a stick that will tell them the direction of the closest source of ONE type of metal (Seek Earth, 50 energy to enchant, seeks only one specific type of earth).

.
If that metal is gold it's a real bargain.

However, gold-seeking sticks will be turned out most profitably by a smallish circle of Enchanters. # Enchanters with 5-6 pt Powerstones can do it as fast as their stones recharge and there's no rue saying they can't have multiple stones stashed around their dwelling places. For smallish stones this is fairly practical.

So contrary to what the current ed of Magic says powerstones are commonly used for Q&D Enchantment. That text is allegedly in Magic for settings where the GM has decided to ban Powerstones.

By the time you get to S&S sure only items (which is in the low hundreds) a lone Enchanters probably makes them by himself. The financial return to him is the same on a per day basis whether 5 mages make a 5000 pt sword in 1000 days or 1 mage makes it in 5000 days.

There are also _many_ options for speeding up Enchantment. Search this forum. It's been a frequent topic.

Your next likely stumbling block is "When do you use Manastones instead of Powerstones?" and that answer is "almost never".

Magic is full of things that were included to be alternate possibilities. don't assume that just because something is in Magic it must be a key component of some part of the system. If al options are on the table then some of them will be inferior to others.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:11 PM   #7
Anthony
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Then there's the question of what use scrolls are and the general answer appears to be very little.
The general use is where a spell is needed occasionally, but not often enough for a wizard to go to the effort of learning it for himself. It's a fairly narrow use case, but there are some situations where it makes sense.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:14 PM   #8
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

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The general use is where a spell is needed occasionally, but not often enough for a wizard to go to the effort of learning it for himself. It's a fairly narrow use case, but there are some situations where it makes sense.
The "trouble" is seldom more than 1 cp net. Any prereqs usually have their own utility.
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:37 PM   #9
wmervine4
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
As others have noted this is the case. Q&D requires a total time of 1 hour per 100 energy but all the energy must be available at the last second.

As for scrolls, no there is no alternate procedure. Scrolls are made a special case by their rules text.

Then there's the question of what use scrolls are and the general answer appears to be very little. At most here might be the scenario where an old but feeble mage writes a scroll of a very advanced spell and gives it to a younger and more vigorous mage to read at the climax of an adventure.

The actual numbers don't crunch very well on this. A spell that is "beyond" a young mage is probably no more than 5 cp in prereqs beyond him. The more common limit on the ability to cast "advanced" spells appears to be energy cost.

So no, I haven't come across a scroll in Gurps play and I haven't placed one as a GM. Written magical treasures tend to be textbooks for learning spells in my experience.
Actually, the fact that Q&D can't be used effectively by lone enchanters, and the fact that S&S takes forever to produce items of even minimal value even with a powerful group of enchanters leads me to the conclusion that lone enchanters would be far better off making scrolls all day. For $33/day, scrolls are the most cost effective way for lone enchanters to make money.

I would think that the value of scrolls would include some of the following:

- Selling them to apprentice mages who are trying to learn new spells. Buying individual scrolls with specific spells might be more cost effective for young mages as opposed to buying expensive spell books containing 20+ spells with predefined spell chains that may or may not be of interest.

- Having spell scrolls on hand might be a legitimate way for an adventuring mage to justify spending CP on acquiring a new spell in play, because he has been studying the scroll in his downtime during adventures.

- Spell scrolls would be most useful for utility spells cast outside of combat, particularly ones that are either infrequently used or are of little long term value for the mage to actually spend 1 CP or more learning. Of particular use might be spells that the mage doesn't need to learn as a prerequisite for more advanced spells he wants to learn, but might still be useful to have along for an adventure "just in case."

- Casting without a chance of failure, or casting spells at a higher level. A mage that doesn't know a spell at a very high level may choose to cast from a scroll to guarantee success since no roll is required to cast from a scroll unless the spell is Resisted. If the spell is Resisted, it is cast at the level of the mage who wrote the scroll, not the mage who is doing the casting, so this would benefit a mage that doesn't know a spell at a high level, but wants to cast a Resisted spell with greater confidence of success.

I'm sure there could be other uses for scrolls, but these examples off the top of my head don't seem too shabby!
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Old 11-16-2015, 02:28 PM   #10
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: GURPS Magic - Enchanting and the Scroll spell

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Originally Posted by wmervine4 View Post
I would think that the value of scrolls would include some of the following:

- Selling them to apprentice mages who are trying to learn new spells. Buying individual scrolls with specific spells might be more cost effective for young mages as opposed to buying expensive spell books containing 20+ spells with predefined spell chains that may or may not be of interest.

- Having spell scrolls on hand might be a legitimate way for an adventuring mage to justify spending CP on acquiring a new spell in play, because he has been studying the scroll in his downtime during adventures.

- Spell scrolls would be most useful for utility spells cast outside of combat, particularly ones that are either infrequently used or are of little long term value for the mage to actually spend 1 CP or more learning. Of particular use might be spells that the mage doesn't need to learn as a prerequisite for more advanced spells he wants to learn, but might still be useful to have along for an adventure "just in case."

- Casting without a chance of failure, or casting spells at a higher level. A mage that doesn't know a spell at a very high level may choose to cast from a scroll to guarantee success since no roll is required to cast from a scroll unless the spell is Resisted. If the spell is Resisted, it is cast at the level of the mage who wrote the scroll, not the mage who is doing the casting, so this would benefit a mage that doesn't know a spell at a high level, but wants to cast a Resisted spell with greater confidence of success.

I'm sure there could be other uses for scrolls, but these examples off the top of my head don't seem too shabby!
The first and second ones don't work because you can't study scrolls to learn the spells they contain. That's a D&D-ism.

The third one doesn't work because most utiity spells are low on the prereq chains. Also if you learn a spell at level 15-19 you get 1pt off the energy costs. Most serious mages are set up so they can get their spells at 15+ for 1 cp You still have to pay full energy costs for spells read from scrolls. Another way Gurps Magic doesn't follow D&D practice. This may be different in one of the Dungeon Fantasy books.

The 4th one is accurate but still a rare situation.
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