06-12-2013, 09:56 AM | #21 | ||
Fightin' Round the World
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
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As for why everyone doesn't do it, let's start here: Quote:
Second, even in a cinematic game, you give up a lot without a shield. "Dual-Wield" looks a lot cooler in movies and in video games that don't worry too much about defenses in the first place. It's suckier in a game with arrows and quarrels and sling bullets because you're reduces to Dodge since you don't have Block. You get some nice parries, yes, but you give up the DB of a shield to do it. You also give up two-handed weapon use, which means you give up some damage, potentially give up better parries (if you're using GURPS Martial Arts), and often give up reach (not all that many one-handed weapons have reach 2; ones such as rapiers do but come with their own special issues). And as others have also said, there is the expense of getting another weapon. DWA and OHWT is really only useful if you've got two weapons, and those need to be paid for. In my own games, guys with two weapons get shot with bows or missile spells, because you're announcing you are pretty good with dual weapons and you have defense issues against missiles. None of this is saying DWA is bad. In fact, it's good. But it's not always the best choice, and it's giving up a lot to get a lot. The cost seems pretty fair for the tradeoffs.
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Peter V. Dell'Orto aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD My Author Page My S&C Blog My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog "You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev |
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06-12-2013, 10:01 AM | #22 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Japan
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
Peter-sensei kakko-ī.
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Gurps Fan, a rules lawyer from the mysterious country of ninja, samurai, and magical girls, the inventor of M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N. |
06-12-2013, 10:45 AM | #23 |
Dog of Lysdexics
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
Question, that restricted version just referring restricted choice in weapons you many learn it for [defined by the style] or is it referring to some other restrictions on how it's used?
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06-12-2013, 11:01 AM | #24 |
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
Of course the four-armed Coleopteran from DF3 can have it both ways--DWA and a shield! I played a Coleopteran Swashbuckler in a long-running DF game using this combo. He had three attacks a turn, or nine attacks a turn after getting buffed up with Partial Shapeshifting (Spider Arms) and Great Haste!
{First maneuever AoA (Double) (2 attacks), Extra Attack 2 (+2 attacks), DWA (+1 attack); second maneuver Attack (1 attack), Extra Attack 2 (+2 attacks), DWA (+1 attack).} |
06-12-2013, 11:08 AM | #25 | ||
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lynn, MA
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
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06-12-2013, 11:29 AM | #26 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
Peter has the right of it. Furthermore, consider what the actual tradeoff is in a world with shields. Let's consider DX 14 warriors who like broadswords for definiteness. Similar logic holds for other fighters.
I Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8]-16, Off-Hand Weapon Training (Broadsword) [1], Dual-Weapon Attack (Broadsword) (H) Skill+0 [5]-16. 14 points.II Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8]-16, Shield (E) DX+2 [4]-16. 12 points.The second fighter is better off defensively for sure: He has higher defenses across the board and protection against missiles. He isn't as well off offensively, though . . . he has to take -6 to hit for that second attack. But do note that he also has 2 points and $540 more to play with. He could use those assets to improve offense in other ways, or emphasize his strengths and go for even better defense. I would say that it comes down to a matter of taste. In practice, after running hundreds of hours of combats, I've seen no huge edge going to two-weapon fighters. Once you get up to Weapon Master types who can justify raising DWA in the first place, the gap closes further, as the Rapid Strike penalty shrinks to -3 and the leftover points and cash can offset most of this via balanced weapons and Weapon Bonds.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
06-12-2013, 11:58 AM | #27 |
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
Well...that sure wasn't clear from the text. I wish I'd known about that...I would have tried to convince my GM to let me take six attacks with one DWA! That said, I'm pretty sure my GM would have rightfully said "no." Even if the almighty Kromm thinks it makes sense to play it this way, the wording on B417 is pretty clear: "If you have at least two hands, you can strike with two hands at once using an Attack maneuver instead of an All-Out Attack (Double) maneuver." It doesn't say you can strike with all your hands at once, it says you can strike with two hands at once.
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06-12-2013, 02:20 PM | #28 |
Fightin' Round the World
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
Both. Look at, say, Escrima (p. 156) - you can learn DWA for any of your variety of weapons, but you can only launch attacks on the same target. Regular DWA lets you split it out. Or Wushu (p. 207), which allows a split kick that can only target adjacent foes, not two kicks to one foe. They all come with restrictions if bought as a realistic technique. This sort of restriction is specifically called out on p. 52 of MA, as well.
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Peter V. Dell'Orto aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD My Author Page My S&C Blog My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog "You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev |
06-13-2013, 01:22 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Japan
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
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__________________
Gurps Fan, a rules lawyer from the mysterious country of ninja, samurai, and magical girls, the inventor of M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N. |
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06-13-2013, 05:50 AM | #30 |
Join Date: Jul 2012
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Re: off hand weapon training perk and technique
It may be worth mentioning that combat perks are quite precious, since you'll only be allowed one or two in most point budgets (following the 1 per 20 points in combat skills guidline) and you might well want some of the other juicy options (eg. Technique Mastery, Special Exercises, Teamwork, etc.)
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Tags |
off-hand weapon training, perk, rules, technique |
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