off hand weapon training perk and technique

[joppeknol]

In a PbP, I had a player who took broadsword to 13, then put 5 points in dual-weapon training and 1 point in off-hand weapon training perk. For 6 cp he now can fight with 2 swords and effectively has a double attack.

He was kind enough to remove it after I told him that I thought it would make his character overpowered compared to the others, but it still bugs me. Was this legal? Why wouldn't everyone do this? (Except for when it doesn't fit the character concept.).

My best argument rulewise would be that I don't use the martial arts in my campaign. However, what I understand from its description is that it replaces the off-hand weapon training from the basic set because the latter was underpowered. If it replaces the technique, isn't the technique a kind of 'bug' in the basic set, or does it still have a function?

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

In a PbP, I had a player who took broadsword to 13, then put 5 points in dual-weapon training and 1 point in off-hand weapon training perk. For 6 cp he now can fight with 2 swords and effectively has a double attack.

He was kind enough to remove it after I told him that I thought it would make his character overpowered compared to the others, but it still bugs me. Was this legal? Why wouldn't everyone do this? (Except for when it doesn't fit the character concept.).

Depends. DWA is specifically noted as being cinematic, except for Guns (Pistol), so if you're in a cinematic game it's probably okay, and if you're not it's probably not.

[vicky_molokh]

OHWT as a Technique is extremely overpriced when compared to Ambidexterity.

Also, in addition to DWA being cinematic, it effectively doubles the cost of all weapon upgrades.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

OHWT as a Technique is extremely overpriced when compared to Ambidexterity.

This is true, but the OP indicated that the player was taking the Perk, not the technique.

Plus, even the cinematic fighters who use two weapons don't usually use two full-sized broadswords in the off hand; the off hand or both hands usually have a lighter weapon (broadsword and shortsword, rapier and main-gauche, paired sais, paired shortswords, etc.), not two large weapons.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

This is true, but the OP indicated that the player was taking the Perk, not the technique.

Yes, but I'm pointing out why the Perk makes sense in terms of pricing.

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Plus, even the cinematic fighters who use two weapons don't usually use two full-sized broadswords in the off hand; the off hand or both hands usually have a lighter weapon (broadsword and shortsword, rapier and main-gauche, paired sais, paired shortswords, etc.), not two large weapons.

Exactly. Dual-weapon deny themselves the opportunity to afford two cool big weapons. Or a shield, which is no laughing matter!

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Exactly. Dual-weapon deny themselves the opportunity to afford two cool big weapons.

Not true. In fact, it's easier to DWA with two cool big identical weapons, because you only need one weapon skill, DWA [5], and OHWT [1] for a total of 6 points, as the OP stated.

Originally Posted by Orochi-art

Basic Set, p. 417 Dual Weapon Attack
You must use All-out-Attack (Double) which means no active defense.

Not true! Dual-Weapon Attack specifically allows two attacks without the need for an All-Out Attack. You certainly do still get active defenses.

Originally Posted by Orochi-art

Using two weapons is nice but you could spend those CP in different, more useful ways.

For example: You could increase your shield skill by 2.
Shield gives you DB on all active defense rolls while a weapon allows you only parry and very few weapons grant bonus on parry.
Shield also gives you DB against muscle-powered ranged attacks.
Shield grants cover.

Agreed. A Shield is usually cheaper in both $ and CP, and it improves your defenses, which is usually more important than having better/more attacks (not dying is usually a higher priority than killing the other guy).

[Orochi-art]

Originally Posted by joppeknol

In a PbP, I had a player who took broadsword to 13, then put 5 points in dual-weapon training and 1 point in off-hand weapon training perk. For 6 cp he now can fight with 2 swords and effectively has a double attack.

He was kind enough to remove it after I told him that I thought it would make his character overpowered compared to the others, but it still bugs me.

He is hardly over-powered.

Basic Set, p. 417 Dual Weapon Attack
You must use All-out-Attack (Double) which means no active defense. If you use Attack maneuver you gain -4 penalty on primary hand and -8 on off hand attack. (In case of your player his skill drops from Broadsword -13 to Broadsword-9 and Broadsword-5.)

Dual-Weapon Training cost 5 points and Off-hand Training costs 5 points. Both DWT and OHWT are bought per skill. Not really cheap.

If this is a problem you could let him have a less effective skills. DWT and OHWT only buys half of penalties. So you have -2 on primary weapon and -4 with off-hand weapon. He will still be able to use two weapons but at a price. He is sacrificing something to get the benefits.

Originally Posted by joppeknol

Why wouldn't everyone do this? (Except for when it doesn't fit the character concept.)

Using two weapons is nice but you could spend those CP in different, more useful ways.

For example: You could increase your shield skill by 2.
Shield gives you DB on all active defense rolls while a weapon allows you only parry and very few weapons grant bonus on parry.
Shield also gives you DB against muscle-powered ranged attacks.
Shield grants cover.

Originally Posted by joppeknol

However, what I understand from its description is that it replaces the off-hand weapon training from the basic set because the latter was underpowered. If it replaces the technique, isn't the technique a kind of 'bug' in the basic set, or does it still have a function?

Problem begins when you want to have multiple ways to implement your dual-weapon style. As I said DWT and OHWT must be bought per skill. You want Rapier/Knife pay up to 10 points. Rapier/Rapier another 10 points. Rapier/Buckler 10 points. This is 15 CP in just OHWT or you could buy Ambidexterity for 5 CP.

Some people don't want to have ambidexterity because idea is they put hard work, blood, sweat and tears to be able to preform dual-style.

That is why they made it a perk. A person who wants to play a swashbuckler is able to do without the need to cash out 15-30 CP on OHWT.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Orochi-art

Dual-Weapon Training cost 5 points and Off-hand Training costs 5 points. Both DWT and OHWT are bought per skill. Not really cheap.

The above highlighted statement is deprecated and is no longer considered among the RAW. Dual-Weapon Attack is still a Technique, but Off-Hand Weapon Training is now - as of Martial Arts and reprinted in Power-Ups 2: Perks - a Perk, since for the same price as the Basic Set Technique you could just get Ambidexterity and not worry about off-hand penalties. Now you can train in your off hand for four different skills and still be cheaper than Ambidexterity.

[Orochi-art]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

The above highlighted statement is deprecated and is no longer considered among the RAW. Dual-Weapon Attack is still a Technique, but Off-Hand Weapon Training is now a Perk

I mentioned this in my post. OP asked about OHWT technique.

Originally Posted by Orochi-art

He is hardly over-powered.
That is why they made it a perk. A person who wants to play a swashbuckler is able to do without the need to cash out 15-30 CP on OHWT.

[Gurps Fan]

Remember that while the combat option called "Dual-Weapon Attack" is allowed (with GM permission, of course) in a realistic campaign, the technique with the same name is a cinematic technique -- buying Trained By A Master [30] or Weapon Master [20 to 45] beforehand is one of the prerequisites to learn Dual-Weapon Attack technique. See Martial Arts, pp. 82-83.