[AtE] Condition of Highways

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Warlockco

Kinda depends on how badly you want things to degrade, just look at the Fallout series of games for how things look roughly 200 years later. Though I think they preserved things a fair bit better than what would realistically happen.
Another place to look is the first Mad Max movie, since they were still using the highways.

Just as a point of information, the first Mad Max movie took place while the world was in the process of ending. Max Rockatansky worked for the Main Force Patrol, which indicates that (regionally, at least) some governmental authority existed and very likely maintained the roads in the area.

That said, those roads were not superhighways. They were the equivalent of what would be state roads, in the United States.

The remaining films all take place within 20 years (or so) of Max's lifetime, out in the wastes, far from civilization. The best they had was a section of railroad that had been indifferently maintained. The rest of the roads hadn't had time to decay much, yet (The Road Warrior), or were maintained by the people who used them (Fury Road). Also, I don't think the deserts of central Australia see much frost-heave.

The basic assumption of AtE is that the collapse took place about two generations ago. In that case, I think the best you'd see is half-way decent road maintenance in areas where several interdependent communities lie in close proximity to one another.

Out in the wastelands, you'd see narrow tracks or dirt roads, at best. You'd definitely need a vehicle designed for off-road activity, and about 30 mph/50 kph is the best speed you'd get (which is still pretty awesome, compared to most historical travel times), for short stretches.

In my Facets campaign (I need to stop procrastinating and get the latest session written up...), the group just took some steam-buggies through to an area where the technology is fairly backwards.

They made the 170-mile trip from what would be southern Utah to the Grand Junction Area in about 14 hours, using reasonably maintained dirt roads that see reasonably frequent use by pack-trains and heavy wagons.

On modern highways, that trip takes about three hours.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Bruno

For some reason, this reminds me of the Rabbit Proof Fence in West Australia. Or the one in Queensland, Australia. Or the Dingo Fence. Australia has a real history of building giant long fences to try to stop pest animals.

The fences haven't been 100% successful, but they seem to have helped other control measures by slowing migration of new animals. Of course, animal population models are very hard to apply to humans, since our reaction to a fence is more than "try to climb it or dig under it". Often it's "get 50 friends and knock it all down" or even "hire that one expert and blow it up".

Thanks Bruno! I do try to show how real, practical things can help inspire things in more gonzo settings, even though those are not what I usually run or read or watch.

That wall also sounds like a Checkov's gun, whether the adventurers lead the mutants across it, or have to run without their gasoline and only half of the .50-caliber ammunition they were promised when the mutants break through during their victory feast.

[Phantasm]

One thing I've run into with my current GURPS Rifts game set along the Chesapeake Bay (ca 102 PA) is travel times.

I'm basically assuming that several roads are still in use, but that the roads have gone from concrete and asphalt to dirt roads in the 300-400 years since the Cataclysm. Still, my players seem to assume 60 mph rather than 20-30 mph for overland travel, even with roads being bad. I tell them it took a day to get from the place we started (roughly due east of DC) to Annapolis, and they want to turn around and go back to the starting town to drop someone off and then head north to Aberdeen... while thinking they can make it to Aberdeen in a day and a half. Given the dirt roads used as trade routes, I don't think they'd make it. Do you?

[Warlockco]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

One thing I've run into with my current GURPS Rifts game set along the Chesapeake Bay (ca 102 PA) is travel times.

I'm basically assuming that several roads are still in use, but that the roads have gone from concrete and asphalt to dirt roads in the 300-400 years since the Cataclysm. Still, my players seem to assume 60 mph rather than 20-30 mph for overland travel, even with roads being bad. I tell them it took a day to get from the place we started (roughly due east of DC) to Annapolis, and they want to turn around and go back to the starting town to drop someone off and then head north to Aberdeen... while thinking they can make it to Aberdeen in a day and a half. Given the dirt roads used as trade routes, I don't think they'd make it. Do you?

Sure if they have air transport... But that draws it own attention.

There is one thing a good number of players, even GMs don't account for is how much time is "wasted" being on lookout for hazards and even avoiding them.
Biggest thing most of us have to look for when we travel is construction or large animals crossing the road.

[Bruno]

My old friend had some family come to visit from Germany for a week. They were planning to spend a few days in Ottawa with their relatives, take a day trip to the west coast and see the totem poles and the Rockies on the way, take a day trip to the east coast to see Newfoundland, and a day trip north to see the Polar bears. By car.

Needless to say, they did not see the totem poles, the Rockies, the Polar bears, or Newfoundland.

My friend's relatives had a poor grasp of the scale of Canada (they were used to thinking of Germany as one of the really big countries in Europe, so Canada's really big, it must be, like, two or three times as big, right?).

Your players need their own sense of scale adjusted. :D

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

I'm basically assuming that several roads are still in use, but that the roads have gone from concrete and asphalt to dirt roads in the 300-400 years since the Cataclysm. Still, my players seem to assume 60 mph rather than 20-30 mph for overland travel, even with roads being bad.

With the well-maintained gravel and dirt roads around here, you'd be crazy to do 60 mph. I'd even question 60 kph (~30mph) - 50kph would be safer, particularly lacking AAA/CAA and cellphone service should you blow a tyre or skid off a curve in your foolishness. But they probably have a higher Driving skill than me, so perhaps 30mph is safe-ish.

60 mph is what you do on nice, smooth, modern, paved highways, with nice wide lanes, wide clear shoulders, and big smoooooth curves.

Ask them why they think the government spends so much damn money on road paving, if they're so sure they can drive cross country at 60mph on a dirt road.

Unless your players are the sorts that are screaming down the fast lane at 100-120 mph, at which point I think I see the disconnect - they like to take a Time Spent penalty to their Driving rolls, and you're assuming they don't.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Bruno

60 mph is what you do on nice, smooth, modern, paved highways, with nice wide lanes, wide clear shoulders, and big smoooooth curves.

Depends on what you're driving.

Dirt Bikes and ATVs? 40mph off-road is pretty okay if the terrain is open and/or you know the route (and aren't hauling cargo or trailers). 30 is less than I used to do when I was dirt-biking when I lived in the Rockies (I was 12... so it may have been suicidally dangerous and I just never noticed).

After severe storms though I always went a bit slower (anywhere from 10-20mph) till I got used to where all the new ruts and wash outs were... as this was trackless off-roading and I pitched myself into a 10 foot deep wash out once on my bicycle (thankfully I didn't own a dirt bike yet, that would have been deadly to take at 30+ instead of just painful at 10mph).


But a 4-wheeled off road vehicle? Probably needs to be in the 30's top out in trackless off-road conditions (even in open terrain or if you know the route well). And if you're not driving an off-road vehicle? 20mph is probably safest on an unkempt dirt track, for true off-roading you will go slower (or damage the vehicle. Heck even going slower you're likely to damage an on-road vehicle if you go off-road).

A Good dirt road (graded and maintained)? 30-40mph would be safe if you know the route (even for an 'on-road' vehicle). I know good ole boys who do 60+ down dirt roads when driving to/from work, but then they're driving trucks modded with off-road suspension, on Good dirt/gravel roads, with high Area Knowledge - one of them owns the grader they use to regrade all their neighborhood roads after storms.

[starslayer]

There are vehicles can that successfully allow driving at moderate speed on terrible road conditions (like dirtbikes), and true off road 4x4 vehicles.

There are also spots of terrain that are very well suited for this sort of driving, like sandy beaches (It is not unreasonable to do 80km/hr on a sandy beach, but you'd best be looking WAY down the line, because you will NOT be able to break or steer around obstructions).

I once got to see a demonstration of some really high-end ice spikes being used on 'offroad' motorcycles driving on a frozen lake. I don't think they were doing more then 60km/hr, but it was still impressive.

I have personally had the pleasure of being told to 'break it' in a 1.5 tonne 4wd diesel truck on a sand flat, I was well over 80km/hr blasting through trees and leaping small mounds- My co-driver also got injured and needed 4 months of physio-therapy for a compressed neck and I succeeded in breaking the truck (the sheer force of impacts caused one of the coolant hoses to disconnect- easy fix when your being checked every 5 minutes of driving).

In theory one of those being operated on the remains of a road would find it better than no road, but here's the thing- people who do aggressive offroading (Like my example above) don't do it for long. You don't aggressively off-road for 6 hours over unknown terrain to get somewhere, you make sure people know where you are, and that medical assistance is as near as possible, and you have recovery options for when things go wrong and get stuck, and you are constantly checking your vehicle for damage.

With that said this is GURPS, and GURPS can encompass normal people, exceptional people, and downright super-compotent people. For the last catagory, sure some sort of super-expert driver can absorb the massive penalties for driving and successfully take a 4x4 along the remains of a road at speeds that would cause professional drivers to balk with minimal danger.

I would suggest:
1. Poor quality roads -5 for 'improvised equipment'
2. Apply the speed/range table as a penalty (-15 for 120km/hr)
3. Apply the handling bonus for the vehicle (Say TL/2, or +4/+5)

Roll driving at ~-15 for the trip, and mechanic at a similar penalty after the trip. If both succeed you can make the trip with the two rolls. If either fails, disaster strikes.

[dcarson]

You might also be back to early tire maintenance. There is a reason that some cars, especially ones being driven out of the city had a stack of two or three spares. You expected that you would replace one every 50-60 miles and then patch the damaged ones that night. Depends on the quality and quantity of tires.

[sjard]

Another vote for location and weather conditions to play a major role. I'm in a high mountain desert area, but about 65 years ago, they shifted the route of one of the state highways marginally (a deviation of a few hundred yards away from the current path (fewer hills to loop around for safety reasons). You can still clearly make out where the old highway went, and it's not particularly cluttered. You wouldn't want to drive highway speeds on it, but you can easily make 40mph without much worry. There aren't even many weeds on it.

About five miles of the 30 mile section that was moved was even recently (about 10 years ago) graveled since it was cheaper to reuse the old roadbed than to make new for the oil wells. Those have since been abandoned as the oil there played out, and I would expect that section to be almost entirely weed free for another decade.

For reference, temperature in this area swings between as high as 105°F ( 40.55°C) in the summer and as low as -24°F (-31.1°C) in winter. Annual precipitation is about 7-8 inches (18-21cm) per year where most of the roads are (the canyons would require more work).