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Old 03-15-2019, 02:24 PM   #261
johndallman
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
US Police data - and police are trained in close combat shooting - has more than 50% of shots missing at ranged under 5 yards.
I was rather amused by a gunfight in an airship cabin in a GURPS Crimson Skies game. Three six-shot revolvers emptied for zero hits.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:41 PM   #262
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

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Good against practice targets is not the same as good against real people with the adrenaline going.
I think the phrase you are looking for is: "Look, good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else."
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:59 PM   #263
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I think the phrase you are looking for is: "Look, good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else."
Intentionally avoiding it, actually.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:01 AM   #264
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

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Police have something called the 15 foot rule, the idea being with your gun drawn but not aimed, a person within 15 feet can deliver a fatal wound with a knife in hand before you can stop them. You might kill them but the momentum will let them bury that blade in you before they collapse. (Again, "winning" a knife fight being a subjective concept). Mythbusters tested it and found that middle-aged men without armed response training needed closer to 30 feet to reliably shoot someone charging them with a knife.
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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
US Police data - and police are trained in close combat shooting - has more than 50% of shots missing at ranged under 5 yards. A typical police officer has under a 40% chance of hit. SWAT/CRIT/Tactical Entry Teams have pretty low hit rates, too.

Good against practice targets is not the same as good against real people with the adrenaline going.

So, with a 9 round mag, you're likely to hit once, maybe twice.

And, even if you hit, the odds are good that the weapon will not stop the guy with the knife.
The fact that the simplest things are often astonishingly difficult under stress doesn't magically make Knife skill immune to it. Things like the 15 feet rule are meant to address the fact that an assailant with a knife might pose a lethal danger to an officer within that range, not that just because the suspect has a knife he's somehow more dangerous than a gunman or that no one with a knife is ever going to miss or make ineffective surface cuts due to the situation. It's actually fairly difficult to hit a spot on the human body with a knife that will stop someone from shooting you.

Training often assumes the worst case scenario, i.e. that the suspect with a knife is someone who'd be able to use it effectively, either due to luck or being an incredibly scary man with no nerves or fear, perfect hand-eye coordination and no hesitation to kill. Frankly, though, the vast majority of suspects with knives aren't any of these things. In fact, I have personally read the case files or talked to officers from dozens of cases where a suspect had a knife, but Less-Than-Lethal use of force was sufficient to subdue and/or disarm him. Not one officer in these cases died. In fact, not one officer in Iceland has been killed by a suspect with a knife. This is despite hundreds of cases where someone tried to attack an officer using a knife (and several where they were wounded).

Just like most shots in gunfights actually miss, most people cannot reliably inflict a lethal wound with a knife in one try. Certainly very few can reliably inflict a wound that stops someone from pulling a trigger. The difference between shooting or cutting targets on one hand and real people trying to kill you on the other works both ways, with psychological factors often preventing people from performing what would be simple tasks absent adrenaline, confusion and panic.

But while it might be a cool head and a hard heart that kill, more than the weapon, the gun is a lot more effective weapon than a knife if the wielder actually withstands the psychological stress and performs effectively.

I'm not saying knives are not dangerous. They are and we should absolutely train people for that. Just that it's easy to forget that just because something is dangerous, it doesn't necessarily make it reliable instant death. Pretty much no hand weapon is. But given the choice, I'd rather face a knife than a semi-automatic pistol with 15+ 9x19mm rounds.
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Last edited by Icelander; 03-16-2019 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:41 PM   #265
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The fact that the simplest things are often astonishingly difficult under stress doesn't magically make Knife skill immune to it. Things like the 15 feet rule are meant to address the fact that an assailant with a knife might pose a lethal danger to an officer within that range, not that just because the suspect has a knife he's somehow more dangerous than a gunman or that no one with a knife is ever going to miss or make ineffective surface cuts due to the situation. It's actually fairly difficult to hit a spot on the human body with a knife that will stop someone from shooting you.

Training often assumes the worst case scenario, i.e. that the suspect with a knife is someone who'd be able to use it effectively, either due to luck or being an incredibly scary man with no nerves or fear, perfect hand-eye coordination and no hesitation to kill. Frankly, though, the vast majority of suspects with knives aren't any of these things. In fact, I have personally read the case files or talked to officers from dozens of cases where a suspect had a knife, but Less-Than-Lethal use of force was sufficient to subdue and/or disarm him. Not one officer in these cases died. In fact, not one officer in Iceland has been killed by a suspect with a knife. This is despite hundreds of cases where someone tried to attack an officer using a knife (and several where they were wounded).

Just like most shots in gunfights actually miss, most people cannot reliably inflict a lethal wound with a knife in one try. Certainly very few can reliably inflict a wound that stops someone from pulling a trigger. The difference between shooting or cutting targets on one hand and real people trying to kill you on the other works both ways, with psychological factors often preventing people from performing what would be simple tasks absent adrenaline, confusion and panic.

But while it might be a cool head and a hard heart that kill, more than the weapon, the gun is a lot more effective weapon than a knife if the wielder actually withstands the psychological stress and performs effectively.

I'm not saying knives are not dangerous. They are and we should absolutely train people for that. Just that it's easy to forget that just because something is dangerous, it doesn't necessarily make it reliable instant death. Pretty much no hand weapon is. But given the choice, I'd rather face a knife than a semi-automatic pistol with 15+ 9x19mm rounds.
Knives in melee are easier to hit with than pistols; the difference, however, is that to use a knife, one must face being injured proximately.

Also, I say this as someone who stabs others on a weekly basis and who has been targeted by muggers multiple ties - the adrenaline rush of fencing is very close to the one I had when mugged. I've never been successfully mugged, having broken attackers' morale in various ways, not limited to: drawing a firearm, using a fencepost as an improvised melee weapon (and breaking the wrist of the attacker), dislocating the attacker's wrist, drawing a sword. A friend has used superglue, stabbing with a pencil, and spraying hot sauce as means of ending muggings.

Competence is not correlated to willingness to mug someone.

I've returned fire in self defense more than once as a civilian. I was (until sent home) one of the top five shooters in my BT company. Actually shooting in a life or death was, unlike fencing, completely unlike training on ranges, or even the miles gear training. As far as I know, no people were hit in any of the firefights I've been involved in. (Bad neighborhood, early 1990s, lack of police presence. Guys I was with included a former USMC sniper, and a former US Army infantry NCO.) On the other hand, I have injured muggers, in some cases, significantly enough for them to require medical care.

I've fended off home invaders multiple times, as well - always with a sword or knife.

At/under 20', given the choice, yes, I'd rather have a knife. Even if they have a knife.

Even getting firearms drawn is different in a self-defense situation than fast draw training - there's a correlation, but it's not great.

It boils down to this: melee training is inherently more risky than firearms training, and thus inherently more similar to the real conflict situation, and therefore more applicable to the actual fight.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:00 AM   #266
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A friend has used superglue, ... as means of ending muggings.
Wait, what? Please explain.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:38 PM   #267
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

A Vulcan who is all about Fewlings, makes poems about nature and romance, and thinks magic is a real thing. Though that may be more a heretic than a stereotype.
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Old 03-19-2019, 03:05 AM   #268
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A Vulcan who is all about Fewlings, makes poems about nature and romance, and thinks magic is a real thing. Though that may be more a heretic than a stereotype.
How about a Vulcan who openly embraces and admires (and perhaps even envies) the remarkable self-control of his human colleagues that allow them to be all about feelings without going mad.
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:00 AM   #269
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Wait, what? Please explain.
Squirt the forehead. They instinctively wipe.

"Bonds Skin Instantly" is very very nearly true.

Hard to mug someone with your hands stuck to your face.
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Old 03-20-2019, 04:02 AM   #270
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Default Re: bending stereotypes

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Police have something called the 15 foot rule, the idea being with your gun drawn but not aimed, a person within 15 feet can deliver a fatal wound with a knife in hand before you can stop them.
Everytime someone mentions this rule, it's my hobby to post this clip from Justified: The 21 foot rule
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