Sentry Silencing

[hal]

Just out of curiosity - how would you build up the following:

Grapple attack to cover the mouth with "off-hand" while plunging a knife into the vitals?

Would you simply treat it as two attacks one right after the other, or as a grapple attack AND a knife attack?

I'm tempted to go with Grappled attack against a surprised foe, using a secondary combination attack using a knife to the vitals.

Comments?

[zoncxs]

Dual weapon attack, one to grapple, the other a thrust to the vitals.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by hal

Grapple attack to cover the mouth with "off-hand" while plunging a knife into the vitals?

I've done it in play as:

Evaluate as much as you have time for. All-out Attack (Double):

Right-hand Telegraphic (+4) grapple to the jaw (-6, halved to -3 for grappling), based on DX, net DX+1, no Evaluate bonus because that does not stack with Telegraphic.

Left-hand Knife stab to the Vitals, at Knife-3, plus Evaluate bonus and applicable Balanced and Weapon Bond bonuses

This is a simplified version of FCCT No.28, see Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems p. 11.

[hal]

Originally Posted by johndallman

I've done it in play as:

Evaluate as much as you have time for. All-out Attack (Double):

Right-hand Telegraphic (+4) grapple to the jaw (-6, halved to -3 for grappling), based on DX, net DX+1, no Evaluate bonus because that does not stack with Telegraphic.

Left-hand Knife stab to the Vitals, at Knife-3, plus Evaluate bonus and applicable Balanced and Weapon Bond bonuses

This is a simplified version of FCCT No.28, see Martial Arts: Fairbairn Close Combat Systems p. 11.

thanks for the references and page quotes. I forgot about Fairbairn Close Combat System. I'll have to reread that one.

:)

[Varyon]

Honestly, I'd be inclined to have it happen over a few seconds, using Technical Grappling. The first second, you establish a Grapple of the Jaw, which silences the target, using an All Out Telegraphic Attack (probably Dedicated, although Strong is an option with high grappling skill). If you didn't get many CP from that, use further grapples to acquire more. Once you have enough, burn some of them to improve (in terms of both hit chance and damage) a Knife Thrust to the Vitals. Continue to build up CP* to ensure the target can't escape, holding said target at least until they pass out from blood loss, and probably for a bit longer besides to make certain they're dead. Of course, if you're skilled and strong enough that you can reliably hit and get a lot of CP from the first attack without going All-Out, feel free to do All-Out (Double) Attack to establish the grapple and stab the target at the same time (both as Telegraphic Attacks, naturally).

*Optionally, as you are functionally grappling with a knife, each CP you gain would do some damage to the target. Personally, I think grappling with a weapon stuck in someone should do impaling damage equal to half the CP inflicted (against a living target, this will typically work out to Injury equal to CP), similarly to the way grappling with the edge of a bladed weapon works.

[MrFix]

All-Out Attack (Double)
Telegraphic Grapple Face (-7 from behind, down to -3 for grappling, +1 total)
Telegraphic Thrust Into Vitals (-3, +1 total)

Being grabbed and stabbed in one second is usually enough to warrant total surprise, so they wouldnt be able to defend from thrust anyway. Martial Arts also gives AoA (Strong) damage bonus for such grab and stab attacks.

P.S.: AoA (Determined) and Telegraphic strike to back of skull is much more effective. Any major wound is HT-10 to stay conscious, so if it connects there's not much time to scream.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by MrFix

P.S.: AoA (Determined) and Telegraphic strike to back of skull is much more effective. Any major wound is HT-10 to stay conscious, so if it connects there's not much time to scream.

The problem there, of course, is that even if the target is unlikely to be able to scream*, they can make a great deal of noise by falling. Even if the target isn''t near something to crash into, their gear can make quite the clatter when striking the ground. Also, a minor quibble - the target is at HT-10 to avoid knockdown and stunning, but has to fail by 5 or more to fall unconscious.

*This is hardly guaranteed, of course. With ST 12 and using a reversed grip (for +1 to thrusting damage), a Large Knife does 1d imp. Against a target with HP 8-15, that's a 50% chance of not causing a Major Wound with a hit to the Skull (a roll of 1 or 2 causes no Injury, stopped by the Skull's innate DR, while a roll of 3 only does 4 Injury, insufficient for a Major Wound), in which case they have a chance to call for help (or even just scream). For grab-and-stab, so long as the grab is successful, they'll have trouble making noise until they break free, and if the first stab doesn't work, you can just keep stabbing (or jiggle the knife around a bit to tear up their insides, and wait for them to bleed out). Note that's part of why I suggested spending your entire first second establishing the grapple - so long as that succeeds, you've likely successfully taken out the sentry silently, you just need to finish up with some knifework.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The problem there, of course, is that even if the target is unlikely to be able to scream*, they can make a great deal of noise by falling.

If you open up a major artery the spattering blood also makes noise. This is particularly true if you go for the alternate quick-kill locations of the neck or arteries/veins (with an overhand knife attack to the blood vessels behind the shoulder blade), less so with a jab to the heart.

If you don't kill the victim instantly, they might also make noise by thrashing around. This can be minimized by holding the victim until you're sure they're dead and then lowering the body to the ground.[/QUOTE]

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by MrFix

P.S.: AoA (Determined) and Telegraphic strike to back of skull is much more effective. Any major wound is HT-10 to stay conscious, so if it connects there's not much time to scream.

It means you have no control over the body though, so when it falls there could be quite a bit of noise. Also, helmets are very common forms of armour, even in times and places where other armour is rare.

Also, slamming a knife down into someone's skull would, IMO, require a check to see if it's stuck like a pick. If you don't drop the victim and your knife is stuck, you have a problem. There's a reason 'grab and stab the kidneys' is a popular sentry removal technique - it gives control of the victim, and isn't too bloody. Cut their throat and there'll be blood all over the place, and blood is pretty distinctive to both sight and smell (and there's a good chance you'll get it all over yourself, and then leave tracks, get noticed by dogs more easily, etc.

[AllenOwen]

Also, blood is slick, and the guard might slip out and live long enough to raise what Shakespeare called "stern alarums".