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Old 05-26-2013, 05:07 PM   #41
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: CA
Default Re: Power Stone Price

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The base objective of the enchantment system in GURPS Magic is "PCs should never do enchantment". Thus, it was made extremely unappealing. The time requirements aren't necessarily bad, it's just that the skill and prerequisite requirements for enchantment are unduly high.
That sounds about right. I honestly have no idea as to why they wanted to make it that unappealing, though. *shrug*
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:19 PM   #42
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Power Stone Price

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
I honestly have no idea as to why they wanted to make it that unappealing, though.
(a) it was the standard trope at the time -- and still may be, given that relatively few fictional mages just whip up backpacks full of magic items customized to their problem at hand, as opposed to all the elite craftsmen laboring a lifetime to produce their one unique masterwork; and (b) it's not that interesting to have a PC that just sits around in a lab creating and mailing stuff to some other, active, PCs to use. In fact, that usually gets gets abused into an NPC / Ally of the real PCs.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:05 PM   #43
Langy
 
Join Date: May 2008
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Default Re: Power Stone Price

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
(a) it was the standard trope at the time -- and still may be, given that relatively few fictional mages just whip up backpacks full of magic items customized to their problem at hand, as opposed to all the elite craftsmen laboring a lifetime to produce their one unique masterwork; and (b) it's not that interesting to have a PC that just sits around in a lab creating and mailing stuff to some other, active, PCs to use. In fact, that usually gets gets abused into an NPC / Ally of the real PCs.
Sure, but if enchanting stuff took a reasonable amount of time (a few days to a few weeks) and prices for enchanted goods came mostly from material costs (due to magical reagents or whatever), then you could still have 'magician can't whip up permanent magical items customized to situation at hand immediately' and 'no need to have player sit in lab all day while everyone else adventures' along with 'more reasonable economic assumptions'. It'd also get away from the current non-trope of 'GURPS enchanters have to work together', which isn't a trope in any fiction I can think of.
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Old 05-26-2013, 06:28 PM   #44
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Power Stone Price

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
My statement is, "Why would a mage want to be an enchanter?" Your statements have been, "Here is how you make enchantments cheaper to buy." *shrugs* .
You started off with an example of why Enchantments were so expensive to buy that no one would do so. Your numbers were bad and even your base assumptions as to why those numbers were what they were flawed.

That is what I was addressing and you appear to be attempting to change your "statement" is ex post facto from my viewpoint.

Addressing your statement as it appear above I would say that a amge chooses to be broadly based (including Enchantment) instead of being a Johnny One Spell for hire because the latter is dull and subject to fluctuations in market conditions.

Knowing a broad base of spells enables the mage to switch from one money-making spell to another when market conditions change. It also provides for him to cast spells for his own benefit more conveniently and reliably which can be an attractive way to directly raise his standard of living.

Especially true if mages are rare. It's nice to be able to cast Halt Aging for yourself anytime you can find an extra 10 pts of energy rather than depending on finding another mage who must be stupider than you are for choosing broad-base over the supposedly more lucrative One Spell market.

As a general remark, no one should assume that low tech markets will be even close to "perfect" under the definitions of that term of modern economics. This as much as anything else should be limiting up simple attempts to model economics in such settings.

Then there are emergencies for which the broad-based mage is better prepared than the Johnny One Spell with money.
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Old 05-26-2013, 08:14 PM   #45
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Power Stone Price

As is ever the case, I find myself tripping yet AGAIN over a "subtle" change in the rules obliterating what used to be the rules in GURPS 3rd versus GURPS 4e magic...

The following are quotes, with actual page numbers - using GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition (aka GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC) and GURPS MAGIC 4e...

Page 15 of GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC...

"Extra energy gives a skill bonus as follows: +1 for 20% of extra energy, +2 for 40%, +3 for 60%, +4 for 100%, and an additional +1 for each additional 100% of the required energy. This method can also be used to make magical items (see Chapter 2) of increased Power."

Page 19 of GURPS CLASSIC MAGIC, under the paragraph heading of Slow and Sure Enchantment.

"This method can be combined with “energy for skill” (p. 15/B151), to let a mage take a very long time and increase his effective skill."

It also is explained of sorts, as to why the value of a Power 16 magic item was worth a given amount as compared/contrasted with the same magic item with a Power of 15. This is given on page 22...

"The formulas assume that magical items are made with a Power of 15. Items made with a higher Power are better and more valuable, because they can work at a greater distance, are harder to resist, and so on. Sellers of such items will base their price on the energy that would be required to create them for a mage of skill 15 — e.g., 20% extra for Power of 16, and so on — see p. 15/B151."


See next post for quotes regarding GURPS MAGIC for 4e, that actively CHANGES this...
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Old 05-26-2013, 08:22 PM   #46
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Power Stone Price

Page 16 of GURPS MAGIC (for 4e)...

"Unlike most Ceremonial spells, however, enchantments can be performed alone (though most enchanters take advantage of the benefits of assistants). Lone enchanters cannot gain a skill bonus for using extra energy."

Note that this seems to refer to the Quick and Dirty method where one can use extra energy in a trade-off for a better effective skill. But note too, that the money quote as given under the paragraph of "Slow and Sure Enchantment" (in GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition for GURPS 3e) is entirely missing in the GURPS MAGIC for 4e paragraph of Slow and Sure Enchantment. Having the statement that lone mages may not use energy for skill - parallels the original rules in GURPS 3e where a solitary mage may not use ceremonial magic at all. It took GURPS 4e to state that Enchantment WAS ceremonial magic.

So, was it an "oops" where the word count required that "fat" be trimmed, and in so doing, change the meaning of the original rules, or was it intended that slow and sure enchantments would fundamentally change? My guess, is that it was intended - because the rules for calculating the worth of a magic item with a "power level of 16" is absent entirely from the rules in GURPS MAGIC (for 4e).


<sigh>

Last edited by hal; 05-26-2013 at 08:23 PM. Reason: Forgot to finish thought (color in blue)
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