[AtE] [Low Tech] Farming in AtE

[adm]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Him being in Australia, I would have thought camels.

Sorry I was referring to tshiggens.

Also (E) is in New Zealand.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by scc

I don't think you'll have to worry about economic collapse for about 20 years, the GFC resulted in a LOT of laws to prevent that sort of thing being put back on the books

The US is in a lot more trouble than many seem to think. Debt (private, corporate and government) is shyrocketing and inflation is a lot higher than the official figures imply. According to Butowsky, in most cities you'd need a 10% pay rise every year just to break even.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA6a...ature=youtu.be

Things will start to unravel in the next couple of years, not the next couple of decades.

[(E)]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That's the reason why animal breeding is a somewhat recent phenomenon of the well off. Before, it was mate your critter with whatever is available, not for what might make the best offspring.
With non-obvious damage like from AtE radiation, the whole issue becomes a lot more complicated. No more "look a gift horse in the mouth", but cheek swab that stallion.

Speaking of cheek swabs, up until quite recently about 10% of grass based Stud recorded animal births had wrongly attributed maternal parentage as a result of cows, ewes and nannies etc adopting another animals offspring. Cheap DNA checks made this a thing of the past when used.

In lots of remote areas it is common to see portable power plants. The PTO from a tractor is a common example. Locally there are a huge amount of old tractors from the 1950s to the 1980s that are little more than mobile motors. Boaties for example cover them in a thick layer of paint and use them to launch off boat ramps into salt water. Others are just left in the backs of sheds. I have heard of places where a motor is used on the truck on sale day, the water pump during summer and generator in winter. Now if you can make 100 liters of biodiesel a year you could get a weeks worth of work out of a smaller tractor. That would be a huge difference.
Few things powered by PTOs
- saws
- generators
- post thumper
- winches
- spray dips
- pumps
- milking machinery.

Edit
Another technology that could get a new lease on life is belt drives. To compensate for poor materials you just make the belts larger. Some old shearing sheds and pumps around here still have the fittings to use a 6 inch wide belt. Whole buildings can be hooked into a system powered by a standing motor. (Or water wheel etc)

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by (E)

Inbreeding may become a serious issue when you have small populations of animals. "Does that cat have two heads because of radiation or because all it's male ancestors for the last 30 generations where the same animal?"* Starting with highly bred animals and living in isolated communities would soon have this as a problem.

Now picture the scene as the towns prospective saviors are heading across the wasteland with a cow, three chickens and a goat.

*paraphrased from Terry Pratchett.

I definitely think it could be a problem in a lot of places, but the valley of the North Fork of the Gunnison River probably isn't one of them.

The valley is a bit more than 33 miles long and up to three miles wide, in spots, with many farms and ranches. Also, while it was isolated enough to ride out the collapse, it still has roads in and out that go to significantly useful destinations.

Without new blood, the thoroughbreds are in trouble, and perhaps the Arabians, but not the donkeys or quarterhorses. There are plenty of ranches for both, either in the valley (for the horses), or in other nearby farming areas.

The foothills of the Western Slope are pretty fertile, but once you get away from Grand Junction, population density drops off, pretty significantly, and there are a fair number of ranches, farms and small towns, tucked in hidden valleys, here and there.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

The US is in a lot more trouble than many seem to think. Debt (private, corporate and government) is shyrocketing and inflation is a lot higher than the official figures imply. According to Butowsky, in most cities you'd need a 10% pay rise every year just to break even.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA6a...ature=youtu.be

Things will start to unravel in the next couple of years, not the next couple of decades.

So, he's basing his analysis on voluntary self-reporting, and voluntary self-reporting automatically renders any analysis statistically invalid. Moreover, he's using that to provide emotional validation for those committed to the concept that the world is about to end.

Additionally, Butowsky carefully avoids acknowledging that he makes money from his exaggerated index, because he says salaries are not enough and you need "supplemental income." What he wants is for his clients to work a second job, and then invest the money with him.

At the same time, both he and the host completely ignore the possibility of increasing corporate income taxes to make up for budget deficits. In fact, he blames much of the slowing economy on those "higher tax rates," despite the fact that effective taxes on corporate returns are lower, now, than they have been for most of the nation's history.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ate-tax-rates/

Moreover, he completely dismisses, without really addressing the details, what is likely much more statistically valid, the "Billion Prices Project,"

http://bpp.mit.edu/usa/

So, he creates his own index based on statistically invalid data, uses that to frighten people into investing with guys like him, and then dismisses outright a statistically valid index that contradicts everything he says.

(Full disclosure -- I've worked in the financial industry, more often than not, for the past several years. Mostly, those guys make money by managing risk, and that means any perception of increased risk tends to make them more money. Also, they don't make any cheap, no-risk money when bond prices are so low, so they hate the current Fed approach to expand the economy.)

Now then, I don't think this discussion is appropriate to this thread, anyway, and I do think we should drop it, entirely.

[DanHoward]

You don't have to believe him; try the same experiment yourself. Make a list of your recurring expenses this year and do it again for the same expenses next year.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

Now then, I don't think this discussion is appropriate to this thread, anyway, and I do think we should drop it, entirely.

Generally, if you want to convince someone to agree to disagree, it isn't particularly useful to preface that request with a forceful dismissal of the other person's viewpoint. Just sayin'.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Generally, if you want to convince someone to agree to disagree, it isn't particularly useful to preface that request with a forceful dismissal of the other person's viewpoint. Just sayin'.

I'm really, really trying to not antagonize anybody. Honestly.

I just posted a rebuttal with sources, but because the topic wasn't really relevant, we probably shouldn't continue.

I mean, the thread is in GURPS, and not Chatter, and it's supposed to be about a game setting. I think that's what we should get back to, is all, y'know?

If it's not directly relevant to the thread, I'm gonna just let stuff slide, I think, regardless of its accuracy (or lack thereof).

Anyway, I look forward to the next AtE release, and I may tinker with the Paonia worked example, once that comes out.

[Crakkerjakk]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it's not the best approach to try to get the last word in and then try to say that everyone should drop it if you actually want that to happen.

I had done a short-lived Reign of Steel/Fallout mashup centered around Buena Vista, CO a few years ago. I may try to restart that using the AtE2 rules once they come out. I kinda like being up in the Rockies (for a bit of that Wolverines! Vibe) but I'm not sure if it actually makes sense. Then again I understand the stretch of the Arkansas up there is pretty moderate climate wise (and my apocalypse assumed generally higher temps) and it seemed small enough and out of the way enough to have a little light technical capability without being targeted for scavenging by robots or nukes during the war. And I wanted a small-ish town with some resources close enough to have the PCs able to go collect loot to upgrade the settlement.

I dunno. I do kind of want robots to be involved just so I can steal stats from the 4e RoS supplement. Trying to decide how gonzo I'm gonna go.

[(E)]

Talking about warm climates. One common microclimate around here happens where fresh water meets salt water. The micro climate is about one climate band colder. Sub tropical becomes temperate etc.

One the thing, are the local cattle breeds suitable for rearing as bullocks? (8ish years) Chianina being an optimal breed (they are huge).