[Martial Arts] Are styles that require two sword skills a bad deal?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In the Nito Ryu school (funded by Mushashi Miyamoto) in Martial Arts it was. Schools teaching this version of Kenjutsu/Kendo have existed for centuries and continue to thsi day.

Was it used much on Japanese battlefields? Who knows?

I thought the two swords at one time there was really just a small subset of techniques in that school. Still It is two at once!

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

One thing I might have overlooked: I don't know how much of an advantage it is to have a Reach C weapon in hand at all times in case you get grappled. Normally trying to grapple holding a sword isn't the brightest thing to do, but there may be exceptions. Has anyone seen this turn out to be useful in an actual game?

Yes, it comes up semi frequently for me. It has a couple of nice additional effect effects beyond just having the ability to stab and cut in C.

1). a determined grappler is likely going to be using two hands so will be unarmed which means they will suffer the parrying weapons while unarmed issues. Or of course they grapple one handed and have their own reach C weapon to attack and parry with, but that's not a great grapple

2).It also means they really have to try and grapple the arm withe the C weapon which might mess with their ideal grappling choice.

But what Grappling rules you use will effect how much some of this matters and how it all plays out though

Another good use is if you are fighting some with long weapon to just close the distance to C and stab away with your C weapon. Obviously this works better if you can manoeuvre your opponent into a position where you can keep them there and they can't just retreat or step out. or you combine this with a wait to keep in them C range for long enough to really get them. Basically as I said in my first post having a range of reaches (especially C) available to you gives you options.

[Infornific]

Coming in a little late here, but GURPS Martial Arts has the Weapon Adaption perk that allows using one weapon with another weapon skill. So for two swords, you could simply buy up Broadsword and take a Weapon Adaption Perk (Shortsword to Broadsword.) So you'd only need to buy up one skill. It's more of a stretch but a generous GM might allow the same for Rapier & Main Gauche.

As for streamlined skills, using the Wildcard skill rules I suggest:

Sword (DX/H): Broadsword, Short Sword, Two Handed Sword
Pole Weapons (DX/H): Staff, Spear & Polearm
Impact Weapons (DX/H): Axe/Mace and Two Handed Axe/Mace
Flexible Weapons (DX/VH): Flail, Two Handed Flail, Kusari, Whip
Fencing (DX/H): Rapier, Small sword, Saber, Main Gauche

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Infornific

As for streamlined skills, using the Wildcard skill rules I suggest:

Sword (DX/H): Broadsword, Short Sword, Two Handed Sword
Pole Weapons (DX/H): Staff, Spear & Polearm
Impact Weapons (DX/H): Axe/Mace and Two Handed Axe/Mace
Flexible Weapons (DX/VH): Flail, Two Handed Flail, Kusari, Whip
Fencing (DX/H): Rapier, Small sword, Saber, Main Gauche

Looks a lot like the rules I came up with, although I didn't increase difficulty. And I didn't include Kusari and Whip in flexible weapons, but that's a good idea. Where would you place Knife?

[Kale]

I've found a hatchet can be a good off-hand weapon; does decent damage on its own and is throwable in an emergency. It can also be used to hook an enemy's shield or weapon for a follow up with your main weapon.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Infornific

Coming in a little late here, but GURPS Martial Arts has the Weapon Adaption perk that allows using one weapon with another weapon skill. So for two swords, you could simply buy up Broadsword and take a Weapon Adaption Perk (Shortsword to Broadsword.) So you'd only need to buy up one skill. It's more of a stretch but a generous GM might allow the same for Rapier & Main Gauche.

I'd been wondering if there was something like that, but then I checked "Weapon Adaptation" and that was something else. Too many similarly named perks to keep straight! Oddly, though, the perk is not part of some of the styles that would benefit most from it.

Edit: whoops, originally said "skill adaptation" not "weapon adaptation". Really are too many of these perks to keep straight!

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anders

Where would you place Knife?

Personally, I often feel Knife should use unarmed skills; knife-fighting seems to have a lot more in common with unarmed combat than armed.

For my old Combat Skills Overhaul (actually, the Mk. 2 version of it), I roughly consolidated to 10 skills to cover all of melee combat. These were Grappling, Brawling, Shield, Knife, Sword, Axe, Spear, Polearm, Whip, and Flail. Some of these required specialization - Shield could be Buckler, Cloak, Guige, or Shield (representing a strapped-on shield), Sword and Axe required 1H vs 2H, and Flail required 1H vs 2H vs Kusari. Every specialization defaulted to the others at -2 (except Cloak, which defaulted with all the other Shield specializations at -3). There were then a plethora of options to modify the skills to get them to roughly match what currently exists (and a bunch of other stuff, because my Overhauls are nothing if not excessive).

Looking at it now, I'd be strongly tempted to just do away with Grappling as a separate skill; after all, all weapon skills include grappling with the weapons as part of the deal, and I don't see why unarmed skills should be different. Merging Whip in with Flail probably wouldn't be too awful, alongside merging Knife in with Unarmed. Having Fencing skills would probably just be a Feature for a given character and influence all of their skills, or a Perk per skill if the character can choose Fencing or Standard ([5] to be able to do it for all skills). So, roughly:

• Axe (DX/A): This covers the use of unbalanced weapons of Reach 1+ held at one end. It must be specialized in One-Handed or Two-Handed use. Defaults to Flail -3 or Sword -4.
• Brawling (DX/E): This covers unarmed combat (punching, kicking, biting, etc), as well as the use of Reach C weapons such as knives (for those that are Reach C,1, use Brawling at Reach C, Sword at Reach 1). Optionally, require specialization of Unarmed vs Armed (for Reach C weapons). Defaults to Shield -4.
• Flail (DX/H): This covers the use of unbalanced weapons of Reach 1+ held at one end and with the striking head at the end of a chain, rope, or similar. It must be specialized in One-Handed or Two-Handed Use, or as Kusari or Whip. Defaults to Axe -4.
• Polearm (DX/A): This covers the use of long unbalanced weapons held near the middle. It covers 2-handed use only - a character with sufficient ST to wield a polearm with one hand should instead use Axe. Staff Grip (see Spear, below) is an option for Polearms, but causes a -2 to Swing damage when using the polearm's main head and only grants a +1 to Parry. Defaults to Axe -4 or Spear -4.
• Shield (DX/E): This covers the use of shields in combat. It must be specialized in Buckler, Cloak, Guige, or Strapped. Defaults to Brawling -4.
• Spear (DX/A): This covers the use of long balanced weapons held near the middle. It must be specialized in One-Handed or Two-Handed use. When wielded two-handed, a Ready maneuver can change to a Staff Grip, resulting in a -1 to Thrust damage and the ability to strike with the butt, as well as granting a +2 to Parry. Defaults to Polearm -4 or Sword -4.
• Sword (DX/A): This covers the use of balanced weapons of Reach 1+ held at one end. It must be specialized in One-Handed or Two-Handed use. Defaults to Axe -4 or Spear -4.

Specializations default to each other at -2; additional Specializations cost [+1] each. Optionally, treat grappling as a Specialization of each skill (using Brawling for unarmed grappling, or grappling with a knife); otherwise, it just uses the weapon skill. When defaulting from another skill, you must still choose a specialization; match specializations when possible (so a character with Sword (One-Handed) 16 has Sword (Two-Handed) 14, Axe (One-Handed) 12, Axe (Two-Handed) 10, Spear (One-Handed) 12, and Spear (Two-Handed) 10). Buying a skill up from a default costs half as much as usual. Note Weapon Adaptation is no longer a valid Perk with this system; it's essentially built into the specializations.