[MC+SS] Alternate TS Calculation

[vicky_molokh]

My approach did rely on relative size, since bombers wouldn't be of any use against hypothetical small Arm ships (e.g. Heavy Fighters). Flak frigates, OTOH, are of no use against large ships either. And this is very unlike the MC treatment of classes, where mortar teams can belong to the same class as the orbital bombardment satellite.

[terranstrider]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Instead of scaling TS with the linear dimension (the model presented in the article) or with the mass (my proposal above), instead scale with the surface area. This would give that heavy fighter I talked about above a TS equivalent to about 60%-80% of one capital ship weapon mount, which seems fair enough that carriers would be useful. And there's a very simple way to handle this formula too: Just multiply the TS calculated using the original formula by the ship's length divided by some constant, probably 20 (so a SM+6 fighter keeps it's original TS, the smaller fighters drop a bit, and everything above gets a boost). So that Battle-Class Frigate from the article would go from TS 68,580 to about 240,000. Capital Ships would still be more expensive than the same TS of Naval vessels, and larger ships would still be proportionally more expensive than smaller ones, but it's a bit less jarring a discrepancy, and it keeps Carriers in the ring.

OK, so the formula becomes:
TS = (average dDR (x1.5 if hardened) + dST/HP) x WB x HF x TF. x SA/20
WB = number of weapons batteries + ECM systems
HF = 10 + Handling. If no Handling; HF = 4.
TF = the tech level constant: 0.01 for TL3 or less, 0.02 for TL4,
0.05 for TL5, 0.25 for TL6, 0.5 for TL7, 1 for TL8, 2.5 for TL9,
5 for TL10, 10 for TL11, or 20 for TL12. Double TF if the craft
uses superscience weapons or multiply by 20 if it uses cosmic.
SA = approximate Surface Area - Length in Yards divided by 20

Question: Does this still make sense when we take into account the difference in surface area by Hull Shape?
For example; the Battle Class Frigate is streamlined and therefore probably has a length closer to 130 meters as a streamlined wedge rather than the 70 yards assumed for an unstreamlined cylinder. A Sphere would have a length (diameter) of 18 meters.
I calculate the surface area for the above 3 options as 1,010 m2, 1,670 m2 & 2,250 m2. Wings are not included.
Sorry about the metric; I never use imperial in my calculations.

Anyway the example Frigate would have a TS of approximately 480,000. All streamlined fighters and ships would have double the TS of unstreamlined versions. Note that armour protection for streamlined ships is 2/3 unstreamlined.

[Novembermike]

I haven't seen the actual article for this, but I'd think that the major factors for scaling would be dDR and damage dice. A fighter doing 6d damage per shot vs a battlecruiser with a nanocomposite hull is going to be doing very little, for example, and a thousand fighters are still going to have problems penetrating. If you don't take that into account you'll have problems with ship classes. Using this model you can make carriers worthwhile by loading bombers with Nukes or something.

EDIT: I'd probably ignore size. It's not really that important if you take into account the class of armor and weapons the ships have.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by terranstrider

OK, so the formula becomes:
TS = (average dDR (x1.5 if hardened) + dST/HP) x WB x HF x TF. x SA/20
WB = number of weapons batteries + ECM systems
HF = 10 + Handling. If no Handling; HF = 4.
TF = the tech level constant: 0.01 for TL3 or less, 0.02 for TL4,
0.05 for TL5, 0.25 for TL6, 0.5 for TL7, 1 for TL8, 2.5 for TL9,
5 for TL10, 10 for TL11, or 20 for TL12. Double TF if the craft
uses superscience weapons or multiply by 20 if it uses cosmic.
SA = approximate Surface Area - Length in Yards divided by 20

Question: Does this still make sense when we take into account the difference in surface area by Hull Shape?
For example; the Battle Class Frigate is streamlined and therefore probably has a length closer to 130 meters as a streamlined wedge rather than the 70 yards assumed for an unstreamlined cylinder. A Sphere would have a length (diameter) of 18 meters.
I calculate the surface area for the above 3 options as 1,010 m2, 1,670 m2 & 2,250 m2. Wings are not included.
Sorry about the metric; I never use imperial in my calculations.

Well, when I talk about using "Length" and "Surface Area" in those calculations, I'm referring to the idealized dimensions, based solely on SM and not affected by the specifics of the ship. Perhaps a better way to say it would be to use the Speed/Range table for the ship's SM (for length) or SMx2 (for area), divided by K (some constant to scale the TS, 20 and 200 if you want to keep a SM +6 fighter the same TS). So the equation is:

(dDR + dST/HP) x WB x HF x TF x SF / K
SF: Size Factor, Ship's SM or SMx2 on Speed/Range Table
K: Scaling Constant, 20 or 200

This equation can be used to derive TS that scales with Mass (by using SMx2 and K=200) or with Surface Area (using SM and K=20). I think scaling based on Mass is more realistic, but I think the results from the Surface Area calculation would be appropriate in a Space Opera game.

Oh, and of course the reason I'm multiplying by SM for "Area" scale and SMx2 for "Mass" scale is that the equation already includes dDR+dST/HP, which scales with "Length". So in effect, I'm using Length^2 and Length^3, respectively.

Anyway the example Frigate would have a TS of approximately 480,000. All streamlined fighters and ships would have double the TS of unstreamlined versions. Note that armour protection for streamlined ships is 2/3 unstreamlined.

The Battle Frigate would be 240K (based on Area) or 658.8K (based on Mass). Streamlined and Unstreamlined ships will have the same TS.

Originally Posted by Novembermike

I haven't seen the actual article for this, but I'd think that the major factors for scaling would be dDR and damage dice. A fighter doing 6d damage per shot vs a battlecruiser with a nanocomposite hull is going to be doing very little, for example, and a thousand fighters are still going to have problems penetrating. If you don't take that into account you'll have problems with ship classes. Using this model you can make carriers worthwhile by loading bombers with Nukes or something.

EDIT: I'd probably ignore size. It's not really that important if you take into account the class of armor and weapons the ships have.

Size is used because weapon power scales with SM. An SM +6 Major Battery is equivalent to a single weapon from an SM +7 Medium Battery, an SM +8 Secondary Battery, or an SM +9 Tertiary Battery. It's a good point about Nukes though... Perhaps treat a Nuke-equipped fighter as being double or triple TS? In the original Mass Combat rules a Nuclear armed force got x10 TS, but I think the benefit of Nukes compared to other options is less extreme for spacecraft.

[terranstrider]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

The Battle Frigate would be 240K (based on Area) or 658.8K (based on Mass). Streamlined and Unstreamlined ships will have the same TS.

OK I like the numbers and can calculate that TS = 240K based on area.
However, I end up with 48K based on mass, not 658.8K - the number I want.
(27+100) x6 x9 x10 x70 x2 /200 = 48,006

Please provide a little more help for the mathematically challenged.
Thanks.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by terranstrider

OK I like the numbers and can calculate that TS = 240K based on area.
However, I end up with 48K based on mass, not 658.8K - the number I want.
(27+100) x6 x9 x10 x70 x2 /200 = 48,006

Please provide a little more help for the mathematically challenged.
Thanks.

Ah, I see what the confusion is. You multiply it by the Linear measurement corresponding to double the SM, rather than double the Linear measurement for the same SM. In this case SM 9*2, or SM 18, which gives 2000. So (27+100) x6 x9 x10 x2000 /200 = 685,800.

Sorry, wasn't sure how to explain that above...

[vierasmarius]

I've made a little Excel formula for calculating ship TS (providing all three variants) and a spreadsheet of most of the ships from the Spaceships series. Hope these help!

EDIT: Spaceships Mass Combat Formula
Spaceships List

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I've made a little Excel formula for calculating ship TS (providing all three variants) and a spreadsheet of most of the ships from the Spaceships series. Hope these help!

Spaceships Mass Combat Formula
Spaceships List

I don't have the rights to access the first one.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I don't have the rights to access the first one.

Ach, sorry. Let me try that again... This link should work.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Ach, sorry. Let me try that again... This link should work.

Nope. Perhaps you just grant me access in the meantime?