Hand to hand questions...

[MikMod]

Just a couple of hand to hand queries:

The new rules for Options seem to indicate that you wait until your turn to act before initiating H2H, but doesn't this happen in Movement, as the Hand to Hand section (and the old rules) says?

I've been ruling that if you move half your MA and jump into H2H then you get an attack that round, but not if you move more than half MA - you can jump on someone but no attack. Does that sound right? There's a line somewhere that says 'attempt to enter hand to hand and hit them with a fist or dagger if you have one out" I think?

And if your attempt to go into H2H fails, and you haven't moved over half MA you still get an action, right? Otherwise if you roll a 6 you could get hit twice and can only stand there doing nothing, which doesn't sound right to me.

This doesn't happen very often tbh but I would be grateful to know how others play it. Many thanks!

[Skarg]

The rules are as they were in Advanced Melee. Both are possible. (See the HTH Combat on ITL p. 116.)

You can attempt to initiate HTH from the rear during movement IF (and only if) you are disengaged AND have a clear path (without getting engaged) AND enough MA to do it in 1/2 MA or less.

Otherwise you would attempt HTH as an action.

Both ways require you to meet one of the requirements to be able to attempt it. (Back to a wall, willing target, enter through the Rear, higher MA.)

In neither case can you attempt to initiate HTH if you moved more than half your MA.

And no, if you attempt HTH during movement, your action was still to attempt HTH - you already used it doing that. You don't get another action to attack or do something else (nor try again in the same turn) if you fail.

(So you might want to think carefully about attempting it when the enemy hasn't moved yet. If you're moving second, attempting HTH during Movement must not be from the front, so they probably can't attack you normally if your attempt fails in that case.)

[MikMod]

Thanks Skarg.

I'm still a bit confused about the rules though. I cannot see anything about attempting h2h being something you do in the action phase on p116.

I can see at least three very clear references to it being something that happens in movement, the last one being super clear and what we have been playing:

"A figure may move into an enemy figures hex"
"To initiate HTH a figure moves onto the enemy's hex"
"Shift onto a figure"
"When a figure is attacked h2h, it immediately (that is, in the movement phase)"

The old rules were the same, except they did not have the new text in option (o) which contradicts p116 when it talks about shifting and afaics introduces the only explicit mention of entering HTH as an action. In new option (o) you shift and then later in your action you try HTH but on p116 and the original rules you "shift onto a figure engaging you to attempt HTH".

And I cannot see anywhere that you cannot attempt HTH from the front during movement - do you have a reference? P116 says you can shift onto someone engaging you, which is clearly HTH from the front during movement.

Many thanks!

[hcobb]

Note that option (o) at ITL103 is explicitly 2 one-hex moves of shift and then enter hex while ITL116 initiates HTH with the shift.

Able is engaged with Baker while Charlie is adjacent to friend Baker, but not enemy Able.

Able shifts to engage both Baker and Charlie. Baker and Charlie shift so that Charlie is to the side of Able.

When Able's turn to act arrives he backs away from Baker and on top of Charlie. Charlie then rolls his HTH defense.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by MikMod

"A figure may move into an enemy figures hex"

Originally Posted by MikMod

"To initiate HTH a figure moves onto the enemy's hex"

These lines mean in general, not necessarily specifically during the movement phase, as is mentioned below and in the options list. i.e. It's just covering that when HTH succeeds, you place the initiator's counter moves into the target's hex, unlike other situations where you aren't allowed to move into another standing figure's hex, and to clarify that foes in the same hex indicates HTH combat, which doesn't happen between foes in adjacent hexes.

In the very next two sentences after the second one above, the distinction is mentioned:

If the attacking figure is disengaged, this is a regular move. If the attacking figure is engaged, he may shift onto a figure engaging him to attempt HTH, even if he is engaged with other figures as well.

But I can see why people would read the second sentence as meaning a shift during movement, and also because of the other wordings you pointed out:

Originally Posted by MikMod

"Shift onto a figure"

Originally Posted by MikMod

"When a figure is attacked h2h, it immediately (that is, in the movement phase)"

Which is unfortunate, but looking at original Melee and original Advanced Melee, I think it's clearer what the intent was and that there is no intentional change.

Originally Posted by MikMod

The old rules were the same, except they did not have the new text in option (o) which contradicts p116 when it talks about shifting and afaics introduces the only explicit mention of entering HTH as an action. In new option (o) you shift and then later in your action you try HTH but on p116 and the original rules you "shift onto a figure engaging you to attempt HTH".

The old rules did have option (o), worded the same way in original Steve Jackson Melee as option (m):

Originally Posted by original Melee p.8

(m) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. During the movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent enemy [...]

and re-written but with the same meaning in Advanced Melee as option (I.a.):

Originally Posted by Advanced Melee p.3

I. Stand still or move one hex and
a. attack with your ready weapon (or throw a weapon, or jab with a pole weapon, or attempt HTH combat).

Original Melee was also more clearly worded on the distinction in its wording of the HTH rule:

Originally Posted by original Melee p.16

A disengaged figure picks option (b) to initiate HTH combat; he moves onto the enemy's hex during movement and attacks during combat. An engaged figure picks option (m), stands still or shifts, and enters an enemy hex and attacks during COMBAT.

(ALL CAPS is original.)

Originally Posted by MikMod

And I cannot see anywhere that you cannot attempt HTH from the front during movement - do you have a reference? P116 says you can shift onto someone engaging you, which is clearly HTH from the front during movement.

You can't attempt HTH during movement from an enemy's front hex because either you started movement disengaged and then entered an enemy's front during movement, which stops movement:

Originally Posted by ITL p.103

A figure must stop its movement for the turn when it becomes “engaged”

and if it started engaged, then it needs to use option (o) to attempt HTH, which in all editions (as already quoted above) says it means you can shift, but then the HTH happens as an action later.


(As a caveat, it is clear the HTH rules are confusing and this has led people to play them in various ways. I imagine Steve may even have been confused or intended a change at some point when writing Advanced Melee, but at no point was it changed to be more than confusing and possible to interpret it the way you did. But as always, people should play however they prefer.)

[MikMod]

Well, I agree it's confusing. Having to go back to original Melee (which I don't have) to explain the 'intent' behind contradictions in the rules isn't a great situation, it really should simply be clear in the new edition.

:(

I'm not sure why you feel it's impossible to interpret the rules as we did, given the clear lines in the HTH paragraphs about shifting onto someone to initiate HTH and rolling for outcome in the movement phase. From those lines it's pretty clear when you go into HTH - during movement. As I mentioned, there is no example in the HTH section of someone attempting HTH in their action. That has been held up before as evidence that the rules don't intend you to [go into HTH in your action] otherwise surely it would be shown.

Fair enough if you come to the Advanced Melee rules from Melee. But just reading them on their own, it is pretty clear what the 'intent' was, and it's HTH in movement.

[Skarg]

I do see how a person can read it that way, but it would be directly contradicted by Legacy option o).

Since I know the old rules, have been in several discussions about this over the past decades, and have looked at the changes from edition to edition, I don't think this looks like an intentional change in Legacy edition.

The options list in all editions seems to me to say that when HTH initiation happens is based on engagement status.


I guess I could see a reading where Advanced Melee was meant to be a change to when HTH initiation happens, and Legacy edition made a mistake by using the wording from Melee in the options list.

Really, as I did write above, people can play as they like.

Looking at it from another point of view, though, and thinking what I would like, I'd also say to have engaged figures initiate during action, because I'd rather the figure using weapons get an action before being tackled, both because I think armed people should have an advantage when facing tacklers especially if they have higher adjDX, and also because the HTH initiation rules are one of the weakest systems in the game, being a one-die roll with almost nothing about the figures being taken into account, and that nonetheless usually results in the target being tacked.

[larsdangly]

It is confusing because the rules and explanatory text are spread about the book and contradict each other. My approach is that it's a normal action if the aggressor is engaged and a free action if not, but recognizing that when you approach a figure of equal or greater size from the front you become engaged when you step into one of their front hexes. Thus, only figures who are bigger than their intended target or are approaching him/her through a side or rear hex side can just over-run them in the movement phase. It isn't a perfect solution as I think you could find statements in LEITL that contradict what I'm doing. But I think it is more balanced and closer to intent than either extreme (i.e., entering HTH is always a normal action or always happens in movement phase)

[hcobb]

Large figures can always move into the hex of figures one third their size with a shift.

If the shrimp has space to back up then this is resolved as a DX roll and if not then as a HTH defense roll.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I do see how a person can read it that way, but it would be directly contradicted by Legacy option o).

That may be, but in many of these discussions around rules the specific section on the 'special situation' has always taken precedence over the 'general' rules of the options table - which has also been pretty comprehensively criticized.

For instance, according to the specific section on HTH I can initiate HTH if I have a higher MA - as a separate situation to coming from behind, but you are saying the general rules about having to stop as soon as you are engaged should over ride the special rules on HTH.

That's not the only place where HTH is in contradiction to general rules - I'm sure it mentions in several places that you can never move onto anyone. There's even a list of exceptions which doesn't include HTH. But I think even from your perspective there are times when you CAN move onto a foe during movement to try HTH?