Why get relics? (and talismans ish)

[Elberon]

Hi there everyone,

The one thing that has always niggeled me is why get relics which only have songs in them?

Relics its even worse, the only slight bonus you get is for it to power its own songs, but you still need to charge it up. You'd be better off 'just' having a reliquary, as least it charges it self and you can spend the essence on what you like.

Talimans I get as they can take your skills over 6 but (and here comes the ish bit) if your skill level + Talisman level is less than 6 why bother taking a talisman?

So sell me on Relics / Talismans (or tell me about your house rules) ;->

Chris

[robkelk]

Talismans have their own Role, at a level equal to their level as a talisman. (I'm not sure whether other artifacts also have Roles). Thus, they reduce Disturbance just as other Roles do.

[alexondria]

well relics will allow you some leway- I didn't get super secret superior x to teach me his secret song- nope I stole this relic from one of his servitors- bet they're in trouble now. depending on whether or not you take the modifiers that restrict who can use it it can also be a party item- ooh wait our healers down- but that's ok I can use his relic and get him back up

[Acolyte]

Additionally, they're really cool. I mean, which is cooler, getting an Outcast of Animals to teach you the Song of Animals or getting the shinbone of St. Francis and using that instead?

While this isn't a choice from the player perspective, relics/talismans make excellent rewards from Superiors, because they are rewards that can be easily taken away. Or they make really good "backup" for a specific mission--Novalis shows up and says you need to get to a small village in Namibia and protect the people from some ravaging demons, and this (essentially) Wand of Song of Healing will DEFINITELY come in handy, although Novalis expects to get it back afterwards.

From a more metagame perspective, many, many, many RPGs are about looting the bodies (and not just SJG's delicious Munchkin), and it makes sense for players to transfer that aspect of gaming to the IN world as well. Relics and talismans allow the GM to make a combat more interesting by equipping them to the PCs' foes, and then make the post-combat more rewarding by allowing the PCs to recover them (personally, I find the rules in L. Reliq. about having to pay points to make a relic you loot "yours" abominable...but that's a playstyle thing).

One thing that doesn't crop up in the IN world enough, I think, are one-shot Relics, which might be one way a Superior would allow his/her Secret Song to be used by people other than extremely powerful and trusted Servitors. So you're doing Jordi a favor and breaking into a zoo and letting out the giraffes--he gives you a few hunks of raw meat, each containing his secret Song of Animals that lets you calm down other animals. Now you can toss these to the lions and sneak through their enclosure. Very exciting.

However, you do make a point. Talismans aren't good choices for starting PCs unless you are sinking all your points into one skill (which is a weak choice as well). Relics can be better, but why not just get the Songs themselves if that's an option? (A partial answer can be found in the big table of features in L.Reliq.) Reliquaries ARE very useful, for anyone.

To that I say--obscure Relics! As a GM, I am much more inclined to invent Relic effects than to make simple Song-based ones for my PCs. These Relics may have been made by now Lost Songs, or by delirious prophetic madmen, or by Eli when he was really, really high. But the point is that their effects aren't so easy to replicate any other way, in which case the Relics are the only options (like the Flaming Sword, or the Holy Bullet, both from the core). That's where the real excitement behind Relics lie for me.

[Jason]

Yeah, I'll second what's been written above. I'll also point out, though, that having an artifact gives two benefits that just having the points don't have:

One is a way of conferring "your" powers to someone else without using the Song of Transferal (or whatever it's called). If you have a feather that grants Numinous Corpus Wings, then EVERYONE in your party can now use that Song, even though it's normally not something you can perform on others.

The other benefit is that every artifact is a homing device; lend it to someone, and you can use track its location anywhere using the Cherub resonance table. It's not as useful as actually having a Cherub, of course, as you don't know the condition of the person you lent it to, but it can still be a handy way of keeping track of members of a group if they need to split up.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

I find the rules in L. Reliq. about having to pay points to make a relic you loot "yours" abominable...but that's a playstyle thing).

GIN handles this easily by balancing the points against a hunted from that side until you buy it off.

[Acolyte]

Originally Posted by hcobb

GIN handles this easily by balancing the points against a hunted from that side until you buy it off.

That bothers me too, because the expenditure of experience points takes the place of an in-game event. Here's two scenarios:

If you're keeping the relic:
So you kill a demon and take his favorite sledgehammer. It's a relic that on a successful hit applies a limited Song of Thunder only to someone struck in combat. It's a bit Essence-thirsty, but you figure it can give you an edge for important combats. You call in a favor with the local Jeanite working at the university to make sure it's free of any other weird demon taint, and he gives you the all clear.

However, the demon can still track you, since the hammer's still "his." Now, outside of game you've got a pile of experience you haven't used, so you cash some in to make the item yours. Suddenly the demon's lost interest (and by points isn't even attempting to track you down anymore)? That doesn't make any sense. Even if you sever the link so he can't track you through the artifact, the demon probably got a good fix on where you were until that point, and got a look at you while you were fighting--enough for a cunning demon to continue to try to get back at you. Your GM rules that his lack of interest isn't so much that he doesn't want revenge, but that his Superior is angry at his failure and sends him to duty in Siberia. The XP mechanics--something decidedly outside of the gameworld--have forced some kind of in-game event. This is distasteful to me.

If you're not keeping the relic:
So you take the demon's favorite relic gun and kill his Vessel, but he can attune to the thing and track you down. Plus it's an Unholy gun and it's not really useful to your group of non-angel-killing angels. So you take it to Heaven and give it to someone at the Halls of Progress for research use, getting as a reward higher standing in Jean's eyes (or the eyes of some of his powerful subordinates), or possibly a spare relic or something else...or maybe even just the satisfaction of doing the right thing.

Even though the demon can't track you anymore, he still knows who you are, and is still hell bent on getting revenge, maybe even doubly so once he knows you don't have is gun anymore. Although you don't have the benefit of the artifact, by points you aren't being hunted anymore and so the demon suddenly decides you aren't worth it? Also distasteful.

[Archangel Beth]

Honestly, the points-for-relics thing is partly to keep PCs from going hog-wild when the nuke an enemy proto-Tether... (...whaaat? Don't look at me like that. You know you've done it too. Or would do it. That Shedite had it comin'! Trying to set up a VapuTether in a Jeanite town, c'mon, talk about stupid...)

Where was I? Oh, right. In regular IN, anyway, the points are representing a Symphonic attunement, basically. And points-for-in-game-minor-plot-points are already -- depending on the GM -- an aspect of the game. Want a Choir Attunement that your Superior hands out? Experience points = brownie points, or they're a payment to the GM to make a mission for the PC, so that the success will get the attunement the player wants. Either way, it's experience points influencing the Superior's behavior.

Now, GMs are perfectly within their rights to pitch the whole thing about points and relics out the window and house-rule what they like! Or they can handwave that the points are paid to remove the "enemy" disad, or decide that points are actually representing skill points in each relic. (You have a Relic/3 skill, rolling at CelForces +3...) Or whatever!

And even if one does pay points, there is always the option of bringing back the enemy who wants his flaming sword back and has only now caught up with you after you severed his connection to his toy...

But requiring points to be paid for what's essentially going to be a Signature Item, and not Just Gear, isn't really out of tune with the rest of the IN system.

But. Reiterating. The Habbalah of Nitpicking will not come knocking at your door, much less sneaking in during the dark of night, for house rules. *grin*

[Elberon]

Well I'm sold with them both, I've never had a problem with using them cause they sound cool but players have a habit of asking awkward questions and I like to be able to give them crunch as well as fluff.

The other thing I noticed is that having re read the rules (a bit more carefully this time) there is good info in both the overview and the detailed bit of talismans -I wish the powers that be grant time to someone the time to haul over the rules and 'tighten them up'*

Then again I tend to re discover rules each time I read the main book

Chris

* to that end I'll be buying a pdf a month til I have them all (well the rest of them)

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Elberon

* to that end I'll be buying a pdf a month til I have them all (well the rest of them)

Good man! (Applauds)