Arrow damage

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Longbow vs 400lb black bear Video

Beat is shot, penetrated through and through,runs a few yards falls down dead.
http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/featu...NDEX.CFM?DAY=4

Good bleeding rules are a must.

My old house rule for 3e bleeding was one HP of bleeding per minute for each 5-10HP of damage BEFORE any blowthrough was applied. This became per second for certain locations (heart, veins and arteries).

So, you get shot by a .223 for 18 points of damage, to the vitals. That's 18x3 = 54 points. At 1 bleed per minute per 7HP, that's 7HP per minute, or one HP per 8.5 turns.

Damage is 30HP structural (hit locations modify blowthrough to 3xHP), and then a further bleed for 1HP every 8-9 seconds or so. Vs a HT10 person, autodeath at -5xHP is possible in about (30 more HP x 8.5 sec per/ 50% fail rate on HT rolls) 8.5 minutes. That's pretty realistic as far as how long people last after being shot.

For a non-vital wound, you last much longer; basically you'll most likely roll a crit success to stop bleeding before you lose the 5xHP you need to get to autodeath.

[Sam Cade]

DouglasCole:That is very similar to how I do it.

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

angel_lord: 60lbs on a BEAR? Friend of mine has a sporting-goods/bowshop/gunstore, he tells me that most people around here draw 70-ish and that is just for whitetail!
......you gotta draw 100lb to hunt africa.......

Most Bow hunters can't even DRAW a 70 lb bow in the correct manner, and a 60 lb draw bow is very near the 300 fps you get from a 70. A 60 lb bow will kill a bull elk - it should have no problem with a black bear of average size.

The real problem is that most bow hunters are men. They have this serious macho complex that says they have to shoot the biggest draw bow they can handle. This is flawed thinking, becuase just becuase you can draw and shoot it doesn't mean you can do so effectively.

I can draw and shoot an 80 lb bow at a target, however I would never do so hunting

1) because I can't do so in a smooth and quiet manner - the animals would be startled and run, even though I am 'perfectly capable' of drawing that bow back and releasing it.

2) it is at the very edge of my draw ability, so my shots aren't good shots - even when they hit.

3) You should always shoot at the draw which you can pull back smoothly and quietly, and shoot with comfort. It is more important to be accurate and efficient than uber powerful.

Anyone shooting a white tail with a 70 lb draw bow is haveing serious overkill problems. I see peopel take down whitetail and mulee with 50 lb draw bows alll the time. the 60 lbs I use is becuase I can use it for deer, elk and bear quite effectively. ANyhting higher would be ridiculous and ineffectual anyway because it is outside my comfort range for accurate draw/shoot.

I generally like to take shots in the 25 to 30 yard range myself. anything over 50 is (to me) a serious waste of arrows...

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

As for an Arrow having more stopping power - I've read two books by ballistic and criminal forensic fexperts that say stopping power for any ballsitic weapon is a total and complete myth. They had field test results in their book that were very enlightening. Though I'm not sure all of it is accurate - I have seen RL evidence that at least makes me consider that stopping power may be a joke we use to covince ourselves that guns very close to one another in utitlity are actually superior or inferior.

I'm fairly sure of it. The only sure way to stop someone is to kill them, and that's actually really hard to do instantly.

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Longbow vs 400lb black bear Video

Beat is shot, penetrated through and through,runs a few yards falls down dead.
http://www.bowsite.com/bowsite/featu...NDEX.CFM?DAY=4

Good bleeding rules are a must.

I notice that the guy took his shot from around 17 yards. I personally have never got a shot closer than 25, an dthat probablly accounts for hsi very nice success moreso than the draw of his bow.

Yes, good bleeding rules are a must.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

The real problem is that most bow hunters are men. They have this serious macho complex that says they have to shoot the biggest draw bow they can handle. This is flawed thinking, becuase just becuase you can draw and shoot it doesn't mean you can do so effectively.

It's the same thing that drives the 'magnum club' mentality that you have to have the biggest rifle possible. Never mind that most people shoot such rifles worse than they would a milder round because of the recoil and blast. It's power that counts, apparently, not how you use it.

3) You should always shoot at the draw which you can pull back smoothly and quietly, and shoot with comfort. It is more important to be accurate and efficient than uber powerful.

Placement is everything. Raw power isn't a whole lot. :)

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

Most Bow hunters can't even DRAW a 70 lb bow in the correct manner, and a 60 lb draw bow is very near the 300 fps you get from a 70. A 60 lb bow will kill a bull elk - it should have no problem with a black bear of average size...

I'm not a bow person, but I think there's some confusion with draw pulls when people start using compound bows. (Or maybe I'm the only one confused.)

Normal bows have a draw pull of just the pull, but the compound have a pull ST different from their draw pull, right?

I mean I know when I used my friend's compound bow with the 120 lbs pull, that I had no problems firing it at all. If that thing had a 120 lbs draw pull I'd be so busy drawing the bow back, that aiming would be even worse.

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I'm fairly sure of it. The only sure way to stop someone is to kill them, and that's actually really hard to do instantly.

Those are my thoughts too. I've seen a lot of debate over stopping power and the One shot stop Myth in my short life, but I've concluded that the best, most effective way to stop someone with a bullet is to kill them.

[zogo]

Originally Posted by angel_lord

Those are my thoughts too. I've seen a lot of debate over stopping power and the One shot stop Myth in my short life, but I've concluded that the best, most effective way to stop someone with a bullet is to kill them.

I'll throw in that it is possible to drop someone with a bullet without killing them, but it depends a lot more on them then on the shot. After all no bullet has enough kinetic energy to knock someone over. Someone (really probably most people) who recieves a relatively minor wound can pass out, or collapse from pain/shock where someone else keeps moving with wounds that put them essentially beyond the help of medical science.

On a less realistic note, in many games killing someone may not be sufficient to keep them down.

[angel_lord]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I'm not a bow person, but I think there's some confusion with draw pulls when people start using compound bows. (Or maybe I'm the only one confused.)

Normal bows have a draw pull of just the pull, but the compound have a pull ST different from their draw pull, right?

I mean I know when I used my friend's compound bow with the 120 lbs pull, that I had no problems firing it at all. If that thing had a 120 lbs draw pull I'd be so busy drawing the bow back, that aiming would be even worse.

120 lb pull compound bow? I find that unlikely, but okay. COmpound bow pull is decieveing. First there are single cam compound bows, and then there are double cam compound bows. Each one effects bow power differently. It depends on how modern his compound bow is. Most newer bows have a 65% draw let-off ratio which would make a 120lb pull bow possible - but I can't think of any reason anyone would need that kind of draw.

Here are a couple of links I quickly hunted down for you. They are lengthy reaidng, but by just scanning them, I am fairly certain they are accurate.

http://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm

http://www.huntersfriend.com/newbowhelp3.htm

These next two discuss draw let off briefly, which is important to what actual draw weight you can pull.

http://groups.msn.com/ArchersParadise/compoundbow.msnw
http://www.bowhunting.com/BowhuntingBasics.asp?page=2

and here is a good quote from a guide to picking a compound bow draw weight

The actual draw weight that is appropriate for you is totally dependant upon your individual size and muscularity. But an adult male with average physical strength will be most comfortable with a 55-65# draw weight. An adult female with average strength will be most comfortable with a 30-40# draw weight. If you are unsure about what draw weight is most appropriate for you, we recommend you choose a more moderate weight. Most big-game hunters can be just as effective (and more accurate) with a little more reasonable draw weight.

Note that is says the average adult male will be most comfortable with a 55-60# draw. 120lbs is very excessive. In a breif search on the internet, I couldn't even find a commercial bow with above an 80 lb draw that wasn't a compound crossbow. That doesn't mean they don't exist, it just means I couldn't find them. I'd like to see the buff guy that can pull it though.

I also noticed in skimming the article that I actually shoot lighter arrows than they recommend - so my arrows are faster but don't hit as hard and my shot correction isn't as forgiving.