Gun Ammo Confusion

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

When you release the old mag only 2 rounds go with it. You still have one in the chamber.

This is very true - if you are switching magazines with a round still in the chamber then all you need to do is change the magazine, as you are already cocked. And with a pistol, even if you run dry all you need to do is release the slide (which locks open when the magazine runs empty), something I would consider a free action. Heck, smack the magazine in hard enough and the slide will often release anyway!

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Not really:

Thank you, it bugs me when people get those confused. The principle difference between the two is that a clip holds bullets, while a magazine holds bullets AND feeds them into the chamber, usually using a spring. Some magazines will accept a clip, others will not. Magazines may also be integral to the weapon, but I cannot think of any that have an integral clip.

Originally Posted by Witigis

1) If you are untrained (i.e. not having Fast-Draw (Ammo)), you need to look down to your belt or pouch or wherever you keep your spare magazines, and then get them out of the pouch or magazine holder. In other words, retrieving your ammo diverts your attention from being able to shoot. That is what the step-and-ready maneuver means IMHO.

Yes - if you are not specifically well-trained in this procedure, drawing and readying a new magazine takes a few seconds during which you cannot fire (except for wildly). And all of that is assuming that you have trained with your specific harness/rig - you are NOT going to go nearly as fast if you are used to drawing from a tactical vest and are instead pulling mags out of your jacket pocket!

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Yeah. While a "tactical" reload of a weapon while it still has a round in the chamber is going to be slightly quicker than a full reload when it does not, the difference is going to be very small: the amount of time it takes to release the bolt/slide or, worst case, to fully cycle the weapon. The difference is probably below resolution.

As for pulling a magazine while still shooting, it would be rather harder than just losing the benefits of a second hand on the weapon. That's a lot of movement and some concentration on an extra maneuver. Even if I were to allow such a combination (And I wouldn't, short of possibly using it as an explanation for Fast Draw (Ammo)), it would have a penalty for doing two things at once. I can certainly say that I've never once seen someone perform such an action. Even in speed-shooting trials, where shaving a fraction of a second off of reload times can make a huge deal, I've never seen anyone pull a fresh magazine out before they've completely emptied their weapon.

[Witigis]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Your number 9) Action 8 is generally inaccurate. When you stopped firing at Action 4 you still had 3 rounds in the gun. For the automatically loading firearms that I know of that takes the form of 1 round in the chamber and 2 in the magazine. When you release the old mag only 2 rounds go with it. You still have one in the chamber.

Yup, you are right with that....
But I wanted to include the usual reloading procedure fully in these actions. Anyway, you COULD still do it that way, losing the round in the chamber during the process... ;-)

[Witigis]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

This is very true - if you are switching magazines with a round still in the chamber then all you need to do is change the magazine, as you are already cocked. And with a pistol, even if you run dry all you need to do is release the slide (which locks open when the magazine runs empty), something I would consider a free action. Heck, smack the magazine in hard enough and the slide will often release anyway!

Not that I would necessarily disagree with that, but as I have cited somewhere above, the rules for reloading in Tactical Shooting don´t consider that a free action....

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Thank you, it bugs me when people get those confused. The principle difference between the two is that a clip holds bullets, while a magazine holds bullets AND feeds them into the chamber, usually using a spring. Some magazines will accept a clip, others will not. Magazines may also be integral to the weapon, but I cannot think of any that have an integral clip.

The best example for an automatic pistol using clips instead of magazines AFAIK is the early version of the Mauser C96, which had to be loaded by a 10-round clip (rather a strip than a clip...). Only later versions used normal magazines.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Witigis

The best example for an automatic pistol using clips instead of magazines AFAIK is the early version of the Mauser C96, which had to be loaded by a 10-round clip (rather a strip than a clip...)..

Ah but it did have a magazine! That is the distinction that lead to ambiguity about "clip" and "magazine".

Guns like the Garand and the C96 had a magazine that was a permanent part of the gun and was loaded using clips. When guns with detachable magazines were developed the correct term became ambiguous. Yes, it is part of the feed system like a magazine is but it's also the thing I use to reload my gun, and that object has always been called a clip. Indeed modern detachable magazines serve the purpose both of a clip and of a magazine.

It didn't take long to settle on magazine as the official term, however.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Thank you, it bugs me when people get those confused. The principle difference between the two is that a clip holds bullets, while a magazine holds bullets AND feeds them into the chamber, usually using a spring. Some magazines will accept a clip, others will not.

Cartridges.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Magazines may also be integral to the weapon, but I cannot think of any that have an integral clip.

M1 Garand.

M95 Steyr Mannlicher.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

M1 Garand.

M95 Steyr Mannlicher.

It might be a matter of semantics, but an en-bloc clip is not "integral" in the same sense as an integral magazine...

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

It might be a matter of semantics, but an en-bloc clip is not "integral" in the same sense as an integral magazine...

integral
necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental.


The magazine of either rifle will not function without a clip inserted so.....

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

Cartridges.

Smacked myself in the head over that one. I don't speak that way, not sure why I typed it.

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

integral
necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental.

I was in this instance using integral as a synonym of "built-in". That is, while there are a wide variety of firearms with built-in magazines, there are none that I have heard of where the clip is a component of the gun that stays physically attached to the weapon during all stages of routine operation.

FWIW, the clip on the M1 is not strictly integral either - there are devices that can be used in place of the clip, preventing the normal stripping of bullets from the magazine and allowing for single rounds to be fired. And since these devices are not themselves clips AND still allow the weapon to function, I would say that the clip is not therefore integral for the weapon.

And I think the M95 will fire single shot without the clip without a SLED, so really the clip is only necessary for semi-automatic operation.

[Sam Cade]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And since these devices are not themselves clips AND still allow the weapon to function, I would say that the clip is not therefore integral for the weapon.

Traditionally sleds are made by cutting down an enbloc so that it wont eject.

http://www.foundry.ray-vin.com/m1sled/m1sled.htm

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

And I think the M95 will fire single shot without the clip without a SLED, so really the clip is only necessary for semi-automatic operation.

It's a straight pull not a self loader.




In any case, the M1 and the M95 are examples of firearms which require a loaded clip to be inserted in order for the magazine to be functional.