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Old 12-06-2018, 01:27 PM   #51
platimus
 
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Originally Posted by Terquem View Post
Fascinating "technical" discussion - thanks you, to everyone

For me, it was and still always is, "a heroic character in a story or game is not defined by how they are built or how they are presented, but by what they do, the decisions they make."
YES! Thanks, Terquem!
It should be noted, however, that "what they do, the decisions they make" also includes their past (background/backstory).
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:18 PM   #52
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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That is an interesting (different) topic, and I take the traditional TFT view that PCs are a bit above average and it's up to them to learn from extraordinary (and probably very dangerous) experiences if they're going to become even more capable. And that most people don't go on life-threatening extraordinary adventurers and gain that experience, or else the average would be higher and/or many of them would die off trying.

Really though you've bypassed the main point, which is why is gaining 5 attributes on par with learning just one talent point? I was a bit generous in giving Pudork the Pole Weapons talent. If he had no weapon talent and had to learn that too, it'd take 1500 XP, not 500! I don't think there's any point discussing any of the rest of it without tackling that.
This last statement is at the heart of my objections to this change as well. Separating the aquisition of talents/spells from IQ reduces the inherent value of IQ and creates an imbalance in the 'economics' of character progession IMO.

I also dislike the 'use it or lose it' mentality that this change creates. For example, back in the day, it was not uncommon to have 1 or 2 IQ left over after initial character creation that the player could then save for a more 'expensive' talent to be earned later on after some adventuring. That is no longer an option if this interpretation of RAW is correct.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:45 PM   #53
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
I think you misread something. Brawny increased all of his attributes by 1 point. Perhaps I made a typo somewhere...

EDIT
I see your point though. It would have been better from a min/max standpoint for Brawny to spend all that XP in IQ...or would it? Considering Brawny didn't live on his wits but his brawn, I think he made the right choice.


I agree.
My bad! I notice now that you said 1 point in all stats. Anyway, I get that 'brainy' has a short-circuit route to more talents at the same XP total, but it's all good to me. I think it would be a blast to play a ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 hero with a bunch of nerdy but useful skills. But the character would eat $#!& in the first fight in which he got caught up, so I don't feel like he'd be walking on stage with any particularly important advantages.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:50 PM   #54
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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This last statement is at the heart of my objections to this change as well. Separating the aquisition of talents/spells from IQ reduces the inherent value of IQ and creates an imbalance in the 'economics' of character progession IMO.

I also dislike the 'use it or lose it' mentality that this change creates. For example, back in the day, it was not uncommon to have 1 or 2 IQ left over after initial character creation that the player could then save for a more 'expensive' talent to be earned later on after some adventuring. That is no longer an option if this interpretation of RAW is correct.
I'm surprised you see it this way; my view is that the change does quite the opposite: it incentivizes higher IQ scores during character creation (particularly for heroes), and does nothing to change the 'economics' of character progression. That is, you are deciding whether the benefit of starting with extra (and better) talents is worth the penalties of lower ST and DX. But once you've made up your mind about that, everyone is in the same boat when it comes to advancing. Saving unused IQ points is definitely an old strategy that no long applies, but it strikes me as a minor detail. I.e., I don't think it is very important whether it works one way or the other in this respect. The only impact is that you are dumb not to spend all your IQ based talents when you are created, so everyone will do that now.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:52 PM   #55
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I think it would be a blast to play a ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 hero with a bunch of nerdy but useful skills. But the character would eat $#!& in the first fight in which he got caught up, so I don't feel like he'd be walking on stage with any particularly important advantages.
Lasso and three levels of missile weapons?
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Old 12-06-2018, 05:08 PM   #56
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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...my view is that the change does quite the opposite: it incentivizes higher IQ scores during character creation (particularly for heroes), and does nothing to change the 'economics' of character progression. That is, you are deciding whether the benefit of starting with extra (and better) talents is worth the penalties of lower ST and DX. But once you've made up your mind about that, everyone is in the same boat when it comes to advancing.
Yes, but the incentive to maximize IQ during character creation is a direct result of the devaluation of IQ later on, hence the imbalance.

And the impact on the 'economics' of character progression is made very clear when you compare XP costs between the two approaches... a starting Hero with 9 IQ must either earn and spend 1700 XP (add 2 to IQ plus a 3-point talent) to aquire the Fencer talent or only 400 XP (add 3 points to IQ) if IQ increases provide points for talents like the old rules.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:26 PM   #57
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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My bad! I notice now that you said 1 point in all stats. Anyway, I get that 'brainy' has a short-circuit route to more talents at the same XP total, but it's all good to me. I think it would be a blast to play a ST 8 DX 8 IQ 16 hero with a bunch of nerdy but useful skills. But the character would eat $#!& in the first fight in which he got caught up, so I don't feel like he'd be walking on stage with any particularly important advantages.
Yes, I agree. Did you read chapter 2?
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:57 PM   #58
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Yes, but the incentive to maximize IQ during character creation is a direct result of the devaluation of IQ later on, hence the imbalance.
Keep in mind those really good talents and spells still have 11+ IQ requirements. I see no devaluation of IQ. If anything, it is more valuable in the new rules.

Quote:
And the impact on the 'economics' of character progression is made very clear when you compare XP costs between the two approaches... a starting Hero with 9 IQ must either earn and spend 1700 XP (add 2 to IQ plus a 3-point talent) to aquire the Fencer talent or only 400 XP (add 3 points to IQ) if IQ increases provide points for talents like the old rules.
Yep. Talents cost more in the new rules. So do attributes. I think that was part of what is called a "design goal" - to keep most PCs from attaining god-like power levels.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:45 AM   #59
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

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Yep. Talents cost more in the new rules. So do attributes. I think that was part of what is called a "design goal" - to keep most PCs from attaining god-like power levels.
I get that, in theory, but in practice? Think about it... when you factor in the glacial rate at which one actually earns XP now, that same character has to wait either 20+ game sessions to become a 'Fencer' instead of 5 to 6. I know some of you like the slow progression, but that's just ridiculous.

And the best talents always had higher IQ requirements so I'm not sure how you can say the stat is somehow more valuable now.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:38 PM   #60
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Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

The beauty of any RPG is that you can change the rules if you want to. You think character progression is too slow? Speed it up! You think talent costs are too low? Increase them! You want people to have to "actually" learn the new talents they are trying for? Make it so!

And if those things aren't particularly vital to you, you can just ignore them and play the game as written. It all works out just fine for everyone.
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