Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-05-2018, 05:34 PM   #41
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Maybe I have a different copy of the rules but 500XP will only give you 3 points of attributes: 33rd - 100XP, 34th - 100XP, 35th - 200XP = 400XP. 36th - 300XP.
You didn't add up Pudork's attributes. He's a 29-point peasant. His next 5 attributes will all only cost 100 XP each, RAW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
As far as not being any better than he was before, that's very subjective but begs the question: Why did you want to train him in Shield usage to begin with? Did the drill sergeant have a quota to meet?
Well you can check the melee simulator stats if you don't want to take my word for it, but 2-handed spear versus spear & shield isn't much of an improvement.

One typical reason would be that armies like standardized equipment rather than irregulars, and/or for group tactics. But hopefully you'll see they'd be foolish to prefer a 29-point spearman with a shield to a 35-point polearm user without a shield.


Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Sounds kinda like our universe to me. And I consider our universe to be the most realistic to date.
Only if you ignore the massive proportions involved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Norris was smarter. He picked up his lessons faster than his brothers so his daddy was able to teach him more of his wizardly ways.


Is this a trick question?

How do those darn wizards work their magic? LOL
And we're back to "I'm not really out to change your mind."
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 05:44 PM   #42
TippetsTX
 
TippetsTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
And we're back to "I'm not really out to change your mind."
I'm with Skarg. Most of us are pretty dug-in on this topic. Like I said earlier, it comes down to the kind of game you prefer... old RAW or new RAW, and I strongly prefer the original rules for this.
__________________
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos
TippetsTX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 08:00 PM   #43
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
You didn't add up Pudork's attributes. He's a 29-point peasant. His next 5 attributes will all only cost 100 XP each, RAW.
You're right. I didn't notice that.

Quote:
Well you can check the melee simulator stats if you don't want to take my word for it, but 2-handed spear versus spear & shield isn't much of an improvement.

One typical reason would be that armies like standardized equipment rather than irregulars, and/or for group tactics. But hopefully you'll see they'd be foolish to prefer a 29-point spearman with a shield to a 35-point polearm user without a shield.
It seems like you answered your own original questions and mine there. It also seems that (in our world) soldier recruits go through physical conditioning (basic training) before going on to learn their specialized skill.

Quote:
Only if you ignore the massive proportions involved.
If you've discovered a universe more realistic than our own, can you give me the name of your druggist?
__________________
Miranda Warning: Anything you say can and will be used against you in a forum of rules-lawyers.

Last edited by platimus; 12-05-2018 at 08:26 PM.
platimus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 08:04 PM   #44
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
I'm with Skarg. Most of us are pretty dug-in on this topic. Like I said earlier, it comes down to the kind of game you prefer... old RAW or new RAW, and I strongly prefer the original rules for this.
Nothing wrong with that.
__________________
Miranda Warning: Anything you say can and will be used against you in a forum of rules-lawyers.
platimus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2018, 08:43 PM   #45
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Pudork the typical peasant arrives at legion and reports for inspection and training.
ST 11 DX 10 IQ 8
Farming, Swimming, Animal Handling, Pole Weapons

He can be spear-fodder as is, but we want to train him to be a good soldier. We'd like to at least train him to use a shield.

RAW, that takes 500 XP.

Or, RAW, with that much XP, we could have him use the spear 2-handed, so he doesn't have use for a shield, and put 500 XP into ST & DX, which would but us FIVE ATTRIBUTE POINTS. i.e. it's enough to make him:

ST 13 DX 13 IQ 8, ready to slaughter typical 30-32-point characters. Or, for the same amount of XP, gain the shield talent and not really be any better than he was before.
Where is the problem? Does this fairy-tale army not have minimum reqs for applicants to "Shield Training"? Do they not put their fresh recruits through (basic) physical training/conditioning? If the answer to both those questions is "No", this fairy-tale army deserves what it gets. You probably don't care if this fairy-tale army screws itself. I have a feeling you are primarily concerned with Pudork getting screwed. Either way, that's medieval life. Heck, that's our life too!
__________________
Miranda Warning: Anything you say can and will be used against you in a forum of rules-lawyers.
platimus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 01:21 AM   #46
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Platimus, it seems like we're on really different pages, here. Perhaps too different to ever make sense to each other.

I can't tell if you really don't follow what I'm saying, or are just suggesting contrary interpretations as a discussion style?

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
It seems like you answered your own original questions and mine there. It also seems that (in our world) soldier recruits go through physical conditioning (basic training) before going on to learn their specialized skill.
The conclusion I thought was obvious was not "oh, everyone should easily be able to train up 5 attribute points! They should probably do some physical conditioning to go from 29 to 34 points before learning a one point talent."

The point is that you should not be able to "train" any old peasant easily from 29 point to 34 points. If you could, then if anyone can train anyone in even a single one-point talent, then the system implies they could also ramp people up way above the population average in attributes, easily.

But if they could do that, many would, and the average would not be 30, but it is, so that's what I meant about not being consistent.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 11:01 AM   #47
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Platimus, it seems like we're on really different pages, here. Perhaps too different to ever make sense to each other.

I can't tell if you really don't follow what I'm saying, or are just suggesting contrary interpretations as a discussion style?
You may be right about us being on two really different pages. To be honest, I sometimes wonder about your "discussion style" as well.

Quote:
The point is that you should not be able to "train" any old peasant easily from 29 point to 34 points.
Why not? I don't understand why this is a problem unless you think of PCs as being genetically superior super-men/women.

Quote:
If you could, then if anyone can train anyone in even a single one-point talent, then the system implies they could also ramp people up way above the population average in attributes, easily.
As GM, you have complete control over how this works by controlling a NPCs back-story, their opportunities to learn and improve, and the rate at which they learn (i.e. acquire XP for PCs or PC-ish NPCs).

Quote:
But if they could do that, many would, and the average would not be 30, but it is, so that's what I meant about not being consistent.
Again, this is completely within the GMs/authors control. The GM/author writes the stories and controls what opportunities present themselves.

Using the Pudork example, will the legion he attempts to join accept every peasant that wants to join? I would think not. What circumstances motivated and allowed Pudork to leave the family farm and join the legion? If you think about this from a medieval history perspective, why weren't all the peasants turned into soldiers? I doubt it was because the peasants were not physically capable of becoming more than peasants. In modern terms, why doesn't every inner-city kid living in the slums rise above their situations to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc? Surely you would not suggest that they are an inferior race of beings incapable of improving themselves.
__________________
Miranda Warning: Anything you say can and will be used against you in a forum of rules-lawyers.
platimus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 11:22 AM   #48
Terquem
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Idaho Falls
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Fascinating "technical" discussion - thanks you, to everyone

For me, it was and still always is, "a heroic character in a story or game is not defined by how they are built or how they are presented, but by what they do, the decisions they make."
Terquem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 11:39 AM   #49
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Why not?
Because it does not match the entire rather self-consistent body of published TFT characters throughout all TFT products. Nor does it match the descriptions in ITL of what average attribute scores in the population are.

If average is 30, and the range is about 24 to 40 (6 points below 30, to 10 points above 30), then there are many people with attributes in the 24 to 30 range. It can't be very easy or common that people add attributes.

If you read and play all TFT products ever published, and you pay attention to the attributes of the NPCs listed, you'll see that the vast majority of humans warriors listed are in the 30-34 point range, and are supposed to be somewhat competent. So if basic military physical conditioning, or any other common training available to people, could give you 5 attribute points as easily as it could give you a one-point talent, then this would not be the case, or it would make no sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
I don't understand why this is a problem unless you think of PCs as being genetically superior super-men/women.
That is an interesting (different) topic, and I take the traditional TFT view that PCs are a bit above average and it's up to them to learn from extraordinary (and probably very dangerous) experiences if they're going to become even more capable. And that most people don't go on life-threatening extraordinary adventurers and gain that experience, or else the average would be higher and/or many of them would die off trying.

Really though you've bypassed the main point, which is why is gaining 5 attributes on par with learning just one talent point? I was a bit generous in giving Pudork the Pole Weapons talent. If he had no weapon talent and had to learn that too, it'd take 1500 XP, not 500! I don't think there's any point discussing any of the rest of it without tackling that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
As GM, you have complete control over how this works by controlling a NPCs back-story, their opportunities to learn and improve, and the rate at which they learn (i.e. acquire XP for PCs or PC-ish NPCs).

Again, this is completely within the GMs/authors control. The GM/author writes the stories and controls what opportunities present themselves.
Yes, which is why my response to this thread is I would not use RAW but at least restore the ability to study talents up to your IQ during play using study time and without using XP, so raising IQ means you can learn more talents. (In fact, I'd probably also house rule that you can train someone with full IQ to learn more talents without XP, but it just takes more time.) This discussion after having said that is just about why I would do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Using the Pudork example, will the legion he attempts to join accept every peasant that wants to join? I would think not. What circumstances motivated and allowed Pudork to leave the family farm and join the legion? If you think about this from a medieval history perspective, why weren't all the peasants turned into soldiers?
Because they considered them the "third estate of men", and they needed peasants to farm, and would just conscript them when needed as soldiers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
I doubt it was because the peasants were not physically capable of becoming more than peasants. In modern terms, why doesn't every inner-city kid living in the slums rise above their situations to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc? Surely you would not suggest that they are an inferior race of beings incapable of improving themselves.
I have no idea why you're writing most of these things.

Not sure why you're asking, but I think peasants tended to be mostly average people who may have had the equivalent in a weapon talent or two, probably not as good though as a trained soldier at fighting with them (but TFT doesn't have a good way to represent that the way GURPS does).

I think that basic training's physical conditioning probably does things like train discipline and physical fitness, and probably at most might maybe give some trainees +1 ST and/or +1 DX if they were not in good condition already. It might be worth some XP, but mostly I think it should be able to train basic talents.

And that they probably do not increase people's attributes much if at all - I'd call it maybe 1d6 x 10 XP per three months of training.

I think a military training program should be able to teach 1-4 points of talents, usually taking about a year. That matches SJ's original rate of 1 talent point per 3 months of study, and my house rule of double time to study total talent points above your IQ. I think most NPCs may not have their full IQ in talents.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2018, 01:10 PM   #50
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: IQ attribute increase and talent/spell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
If average is 30, and the range is about 24 to 40 (6 points below 30, to 10 points above 30), then there are many people with attributes in the 24 to 30 range. It can't be very easy or common that people add attributes.
I agree that it is not common. Whether it is easy or not doesn't matter. See below...

Quote:
That is an interesting (different) topic, and I take the traditional TFT view that PCs are a bit above average and it's up to them to learn from extraordinary (and probably very dangerous) experiences if they're going to become even more capable. And that most people don't go on life-threatening extraordinary adventurers and gain that experience, or else the average would be higher and/or many of them would die off trying.
YES! This what makes PC "above average"! Their background! For whatever reason, they have unshackled themselves from the societal norms. They boldly pursue opportunities to advance themselves while the rest of society remains content with the roles life has given them.

Quote:
Really though you've bypassed the main point, which is why is gaining 5 attributes on par with learning just one talent point? I was a bit generous in giving Pudork the Pole Weapons talent. If he had no weapon talent and had to learn that too, it'd take 1500 XP, not 500! I don't think there's any point discussing any of the rest of it without tackling that.
Ah! So that was your point! You might have led with that! LOL

Quote:
Yes, which is why my response to this thread is I would not use RAW but at least restore the ability to study talents up to your IQ during play using study time and without using XP, so raising IQ means you can learn more talents. (In fact, I'd probably also house rule that you can train someone with full IQ to learn more talents without XP, but it just takes more time.) This discussion after having said that is just about why I would do that.



Because they considered them the "third estate of men", and they needed peasants to farm, and would just conscript them when needed as soldiers.


I have no idea why you're writing most of these things.

Not sure why you're asking, but I think peasants tended to be mostly average people who may have had the equivalent in a weapon talent or two, probably not as good though as a trained soldier at fighting with them (but TFT doesn't have a good way to represent that the way GURPS does).

I think that basic training's physical conditioning probably does things like train discipline and physical fitness, and probably at most might maybe give some trainees +1 ST and/or +1 DX if they were not in good condition already. It might be worth some XP, but mostly I think it should be able to train basic talents.

And that they probably do not increase people's attributes much if at all - I'd call it maybe 1d6 x 10 XP per three months of training.

I think a military training program should be able to teach 1-4 points of talents, usually taking about a year. That matches SJ's original rate of 1 talent point per 3 months of study, and my house rule of double time to study total talent points above your IQ. I think most NPCs may not have their full IQ in talents.
TL;DR - which is your "discussion style" that I wonder about...
__________________
Miranda Warning: Anything you say can and will be used against you in a forum of rules-lawyers.
platimus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.