Transhumanism and Society

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Keiko

Another technology that would radically alter our world and probably cause a good bit of social unrest would be cheap and easily produced human level strong AI. The sort that could replace human beings in almost all low level common jobs...

You don't need anything near NAI to get this; think about what effect google's self driving car will have on taxi drivers, long haul truckers, anyone who drives for a living. Or think about a low end cooking robot that can handle all the cooking at Mcdonalds, Subway etc. Or souped-up roombas
taking all the cleaning jobs etc. There's a lot of jobs that could be done without anything approaching true human intelligence.

[mindstalk]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Where were the smallpox vaccine wars, again?

Or the cell phone wars. Some people have the equivalent of worldwide telepathy, others don't. War! Or not.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

As I see most wars coming out of attempts to modify the power relationships between nations, not much. It's simply a new cause. And a new cause with odd surprises along the way.

Not every modification of power relationships leads to war. Often it just leads to politics.

If I had the Magic to turn the whole USA transhuman tomorrow (pick your own bag of really impressive goodies), and I did that, every other nation on Earth would find it's relationships both to America and each other changed. If I quadrupled the average American's lifespan, thus allowing individual Americans to build skill and experience over generations of other peoples lives, how could those dependent on skilled industries hope to keep up? If I doubled the IQs (treating IQ as something real and meaningful here) of all Americans and gave every American a photographic memory and a knack for invention as well, who could tell what we'd do or come up with next? They'd be helpless children. They'd reject that role quickly.

So you think they'd declare war on the USA, already the most powerful military on Earth? To do... what? Extermination? Enslavement? What's the goal of the war?

Those nations that had the vaccine were more stable than those that didn't or were slow adopters. The 19th century records the fates of those that lacked that stability. Once improved medicine allow European exploration of Africa, European exploitation followed. Medicine has consequinces.

Smallpox vaccine didn't have anything to do with that (and hell, Africans may have invented inoculation.) Anti-malarial drugs helped Europeans invade Africa. Conversely, Europe had been doing lots of invasion without any advanced medicine.

You can try to spin some H+ techs into wars, but saying it's inevitable isn't going to fly.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

If I quadrupled the average American's lifespan, thus allowing individual Americans to build skill and experience over generations of other peoples lives, how could those dependent on skilled industries hope to keep up? If I doubled the IQs (treating IQ as something real and meaningful here) of all Americans and gave every American a photographic memory and a knack for invention as well, who could tell what we'd do or come up with next? They'd be helpless children. They'd reject that role quickly.

Why do you think such advances would remain an American monopoly? The profit to be had from selling them ensures they'll spread rapidly. This would put the US in a very advantageous position, of course, but making war has never been the way to deal with another country's technological advantage.

[mindstalk]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Why do you think such advances would remain an American monopoly? The profit to be had from selling them ensures they'll spread rapidly. This would put the US in a very advantageous position, of course, but making war has never been the way to deal with another country's technological advantage.

Because in the part you cut, he invoked magic. He's saying that if the US magically got these non-reproducible benefits, then the world would go to war to drag us down, or something.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by mindstalk

Or the cell phone wars. Some people have the equivalent of worldwide telepathy, others don't. War! Or not.

Many African dictators have accused the USA of sending in cell phones as an act of war. People on the ground in Africa have been useing cell phones to get around many levels of government control and restriction. There has been conflict.

Not every modification of power relationships leads to war. Often it just leads to politics.

Does the phrase "war by other means" ring a bell?

So you think they'd declare war on the USA, already the most powerful military on Earth? To do... what? Extermination? Enslavement? What's the goal of the war?

Have you read the culture studies weirdos? Or the religious far right? Many people do dream of war against the USA. Many folks out around the planet speak of American cultural influence in terms of vermin, pollution, and disease. If you check the verifible facts on the Nazi anti-semetic propoganda, the Nazis constantly described the Jews as vermin, pollution, and disease. Just like the Jews in Nazi Germany, Americans are labled as a living contamination. Interestingly enough, the groups who do this are in many ways typical of gruops that also embrace anti-semetic tropes.

Smallpox vaccine didn't have anything to do with that (and hell, Africans may have invented inoculation.) Anti-malarial drugs helped Europeans invade Africa. Conversely, Europe had been doing lots of invasion without any advanced medicine.

You can try to spin some H+ techs into wars, but saying it's inevitable isn't going to fly.

Conflict is inevitable, war is just the most blatant type of conflict.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Why do you think such advances would remain an American monopoly? The profit to be had from selling them ensures they'll spread rapidly. This would put the US in a very advantageous position, of course, but making war has never been the way to deal with another country's technological advantage.

Of course not, monopolies don't last. But jelousy does, and bitterness. Although, how they get my hypothetical wand, that confuses me.

[Keiko]

I agree that major technological advancements (or not so major) can cause a great deal of social upheaval, even lead to violence but I don't think war is inevitable for most of them. Thought its certainly a possibility or at least it could be a part of the cause. Wars are complicated but humans are very good at finding excuses to kill each other in large numbers.

[Astromancer]

What I'm really getting at is that vast changes are always a Pandora's Box for somebody. Most people benefited from the printing press, but ask yourself if the kings and aristocracies did. I think not. Although it would be silly to say that the Mid-Seventeenth century British Civil Wars and relvolutions, the mid-eighteenth century Dutch Patriot's Revolution, the American Revolution, and the French Revolution, were all caused by the printing press, which of these revolutions would have been as likely or had anything like as much influence without the printing press?

Transhumanism, by changing the basics of human life, transforms everything else. Someone will be the loser, and they won't want to take that passively.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Many African dictators have accused the USA of sending in cell phones as an act of war.

Which ones?

[smurf]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

What I'm really getting at is that vast changes are always a Pandora's Box for somebody. Most people benefited from the printing press, but ask yourself if the kings and aristocracies did. I think not. Although it would be silly to say that the Mid-Seventeenth century British Civil Wars and relvolutions, the mid-eighteenth century Dutch Patriot's Revolution, the American Revolution, and the French Revolution, were all caused by the printing press, which of these revolutions would have been as likely or had anything like as much influence without the printing press?

Transhumanism, by changing the basics of human life, transforms everything else. Someone will be the loser, and they won't want to take that passively.

Sorry to side track, but if you call them bourgeois revolutions it does make some sense. Nationalism, identity, codified laws of trade and order. BTW the Dutch Revolution was in 1572-1648. The printing press does represent a social revolution in production, from beginning to end, mining, smelting, paper, inks etc it's a huge operation to make a printing press. What does it do? Replaces all the scribes, mass produces information... why? The unification of information, dissemination and control.