Compare and contrast the magic systems

[tantric]

Please, because I'm lost. Is there only one kind of psionics?

[Pragmatic]

I know there's the "power and skill" system (a la 3E version) in the Psionics line.

There's the "advantage" system in the MH line. Probably the DF line, as well.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by tantric

Please, because I'm lost. Is there only one kind of psionics?

I believe there's only one published psi system for 4e, while there are several magic systems. Given the relative popularity of psi and magic, that seems like a pretty reasonable ratio.

[Phantasm]

There's two published versions of Psi for 4e that I'm aware of: Psi-as-Powers in the Basic Set and expanded in Powers, Psionic Powers, and Psis, and Magic-as-Psi published in a Pyramid (not sure which issue).

The latter is essentially: "See those IQ/H spells? Those are powered by psionic energy rather than mana. The GM picks and chooses which spells are psionic." I've found Communication & Empathy, Mind Control, and Movement work best out-of-the-box for Telepathy and Psychokinesis, while the others may need some tweaking or are just ignored altogether.

This help?

[tantric]

And 'Sorcery' (can you see the bunny ears?) is Powers as Magic using Modular Abilities. Are there any other nifty bits in Pyramid? Wizardry? Dweomercrafting?

[ericthered]

Psionics does not have its own system: you can use any-- who is to draw the line between magic and psi? that said, it is usually done with advantages (powers), and has a book of worked examples.

A magical taxonomy:


Core Magic: (in need of a better name)

• basic system
• ritual magic (not RPM)
• threshold

Magic as Powers

• Sorcery
• Psi Powers
• various others

RPM (elements of path magic, elements of syntactic magic)
Path and Book Magic (not RPM)

• Effect shaping
• Energy gathering

Realm-Syntactic Magic
Magic as Technology

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

There's two published versions of Psi for 4e that I'm aware of: Psi-as-Powers in the Basic Set and expanded in Powers, Psionic Powers, and Psis, and Magic-as-Psi published in a Pyramid (not sure which issue).

Two more in Dungeon Fantasy 14: Psis and Monster Hunters 1: Champions, although the latter is very similar to the Basic Set system.

[Lamech]

Alright then so you got the Basic Set Stuff:
1) Advantages. Build everything as an advantage, and... that's about it. Psionics is a particular modifier (-10%) that means there are anti-psi abilities and tech. Magic is a (-10%) modifier making it vulnerable to mana reduction and dispels. Finally, you can make your own "system" by deciding what supernatural/exotic advantages a PC can take.

2) Magic from skills: The "main" one involves every spell as a skill. Cast it, pay the cost, get the effect. Most spells have prerequisites (usually another spell), and the prerequisite spells often have more prerequisites. Some chains can get quite large. Spells aren't based on advantages. Its just something that the writer thought would be balanced, which sometimes clashes with GURPS design philosophies. The basic spell list is rather small. You can find spells in other places, most notably Magic
2a) There is also a "ritual" magic system. This makes each college a complete skill, and each spell a technique based off that. The difficulty is based on how long the spells prerequisite chain is.
2b) Finally, there is "divine" magic. Instead of "magery" you buy "power investure". You get a limited spell list, but you don't need any prerequisites.

Then we are on to systems in other books. For magic the big one is the Thaumatology book. This has a bunch of different magic systems.
1) Various minor modifications of the Basic Skill system.
2) Systems for inventing spells on the fly. Complicated and I can't remember them well.
3) Path and Book Magic. This is a system of spells that take a decent amount of time to cast. Each Path/Book has a skill, and several spells that you can cast with it. You need to make a lot of choices when setting this up. The main issue here is there are no real guidelines for figuring out new spells, and not a particularly large spell list.

Magic has a lot of spells for the skill system from the basic set. It also has a system for inventing spells on the fly (Thaum goes into far more detail.) Finally it also has a system for Alchemy. You just need the Alchemy skill, then you can make potions (one shot things), various permanent things (either basically potions that "recharge" on their own, or permanent protections), and Homonculi (a little obedient ally that's a copy of you!). I think it also has rules for universal solvent (super acid) production and philosopher stone construction. No real guidance for making new potions, but whatever.

Powers seriously expands using advantages for supernatural things. The basic idea is that you have a "power source", magic, spirits, technology, genetic engineering etc. that explains your supernatural abilities. This has a "power modifier", a package of limitations/enhancements that are intrinsic to your power source. (Spirits might not work if you are in someone else's house uninvited). Beyond that it has all these cool optional rules that can be used to modify a power source. Not all power sources need to use the same options! Magic and Psi might be able to combine their powers in a ritual, but extra effort might be impossible. While Cosmic powers might be able to use extra effort freely.

You can assemble your own power sources, but it has a bunch of examples that are common in today's media. There are also several power sources in other books.

Thaumatology Ritual Path Magic: Has another skill based system. The rituals all take a decent amount of time, you need magery, thaumatology, and at least one ritual skill. But it has quite well thought out, and written guidelines for spell creation. One thing to note is it has rules for "delayed" spells that later trigger, which can let your mage cast spells in the middle of combat. (Much like magic from DnD actually.)

I think I got all of them...

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Lamech

I think I got all of them...

You missed Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers.

Bill Stoddard

[Lamech]

Yeah, that was my vague mention of "There are also several power sources in other books." You also got the psi power book. The Divine power book. The sorcery article in the pyramid. And I'm still probably missing a bunch.