Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-08-2011, 12:43 AM   #1
Captain Joy
 
Captain Joy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Default [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Let's say you have Telecommunication-Telesend as a psionic ability with the Universal Enhancement. So now you can communicate and you both understand each other's language. [B91]

Now, let's say you add Mind Probe and Mind Reading with the Telecommunication Limitation. So now you can Mind Probe and Mind Read someone, but only when you're in contact via Telecommunication. [B69-70]

My question is: when you use Mind Probe and Mind Reading on someone with whom you do not share a language, will you be able to Probe and Read their mind because of the Universal Telecommunication link? Or, do you need to purchase the Universal Enhancement again for both Mind Probe and Mind Reading?

In GURPS: Psionic Powers, there is a Universal Technique that does the same thing. If you have the technique for your Telecommunication ability, does it translate to all abilities that have the Telecommunication Limitation applied to them? Or, would you have to purchase this Technique again for each additional ability?

My impression is that the Telecommunication Limitation implies that the ability works *through* the Telecommunication ability. Since that ability auto-translates for you, any abilities that make use of it benefit from it. Does anybody want to try and talk me out if this?

Last edited by Captain Joy; 06-04-2011 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Added bold and italics
Captain Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 06:29 AM   #2
Captain Joy
 
Captain Joy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Sorry for the thread bump, but I really am curious about this and could use some sage input from the forum community.
Captain Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 07:32 AM   #3
Genesis
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Sorry for the thread bump, but I really am curious about this and could use some sage input from the forum community.
I would probably allow it - it feels right to me that your Telecommunication translates for you, so anything that makes use of it would get translated automatically. That's probably not-quite-balanced, but I'd make up for it by giving enemies Mind Shield or other, nastier, defensive abilities.
Genesis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 08:50 AM   #4
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
My question is: when you use Mind Probe and Mind Reading on someone with whom you do not share a language, will you be able to Probe and Read their mind because of the Universal Telecommunication link? Or, do you need to purchase the Universal Enhancement again for both Mind Probe and Mind Reading??
I think you need to purchase it again. Requiring a Telesend link is a disadvantage.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 09:43 AM   #5
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Going through it step by step:

Telecommunication - Telesend allows you to trasmit thoughts directly to others. Universal automatically translates the messages you send into your targets language.

I think the key here is that Telesend, unlike the other Telecomms, is oneway only. Note that Receive only and Send only are unavailable to Telesend. So, Universal on Telesend lets you translate from you to them.

Mindreading is the other direction. Youll need Universal on Mindreading to translate your targets thoughts into something YOU can understand.

Ditto for Mind Probe.
chandley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 01:34 PM   #6
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
My impression is that the Telecommunication Limitation implies that the ability works *through* the Telecommunication ability. Since that ability auto-translates for you, any abilities that make use of it benefit from it. Does anybody want to try and talk me out if this?
There are no free lunches. If you want the benefits of the enhancement, you must purchase the enhancement for every relevant trait that you want it to apply to.

(Telecommunication, -20%) does not cause the limited advantage to work through Telecommunication. It simply requires that you have established Telecommunication -based contact with the desired subject -and- that you are maintaining Telecommunication -based contact with the desired subject.

Consider (Telecommunication, -20%) to be a rephrased (Accessibility: Only those I am currently using Telecommunication to communicate with, -20%).

A -20% limitation should not also provide the effects of a +50% enhancement for free, simply because you bought that enhancement on a completely different advantage.
Sunrunners_Fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 03:18 PM   #7
Captain Joy
 
Captain Joy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
There are no free lunches. If you want the benefits of the enhancement, you must purchase the enhancement for every relevant trait that you want it to apply to.

...

A -20% limitation should not also provide the effects of a +50% enhancement for free, simply because you bought that enhancement on a completely different advantage.
Okay, you've convinced me.

However, it makes sense (to me at least) that if you're Mind Reading with Universal Enhancement a subject with whom you do not share a language, and use that connection as your in to use Mind Probe on them, that you will naturally still understand them. I guess, as the GM, I will have to naturally insist that any player that purchases the Universal Enhancement for their Mind Reading advantage must purchase it for their Mind Probe advantage as well. Also, if anyone wants to add the Universal Enhancement to their Telecommunication-Telesend, Mind Reading, and Mind Probe advantages, I'll insist that they improve all three advantages in lock step. Not because this is RAW, but because in my campaign, a telepath is either hindered by language barriers, or they are not.

GURPS RAW would be that some telepathic abilities can be hindered while others are not; in fact, even when you have the Universal Enhancement on Telecommunication-Telesend and Mind Reading, allowing to you send and receive surface thoughts without concern for language barriers, your default condition when adding Mind Probe with the Telecommunication Limitation and working via your Mind Reading contact, will NOT work across language barriers. Or, it's perfectly RAW to be able to add the Universal Enhancement to Mind Probe, but not Telecommunication-Telesend or Mind Reading; if you don't share a language with your subject, you can neither send nor receive surface thoughts, yet you can still use Mind Probe, even when it has the Telecommunication Limitation and you're only able to probe via a Mind Reading contact.

If I've got the RAW wrong, please let me know. If you think insisting that telepaths can either work across language or not (as opposed to working for some abilities but not others) is silly, you are free to convince me by sighting counter examples in beloved fiction. For what it's worth, I have a Vulcan in my Star Trek campaign and that's why this is coming up.

Last edited by Captain Joy; 06-05-2011 at 03:26 PM.
Captain Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 04:15 PM   #8
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Okay, you've convinced me.

However, it makes sense (to me at least) that if you're Mind Reading with Universal Enhancement a subject with whom you do not share a language, and use that connection as your in to use Mind Probe on them, that you will naturally still understand them. I guess, as the GM, I will have to naturally insist that any player that purchases the Universal Enhancement for their Mind Reading advantage must purchase it for their Mind Probe advantage as well. Also, if anyone wants to add the Universal Enhancement to their Telecommunication-Telesend, Mind Reading, and Mind Probe advantages, I'll insist that they improve all three advantages in lock step. Not because this is RAW, but because in my campaign, a telepath is either hindered by language barriers, or they are not.

GURPS RAW would be that some telepathic abilities can be hindered while others are not; in fact, even when you have the Universal Enhancement on Telecommunication-Telesend and Mind Reading, allowing to you send and receive surface thoughts without concern for language barriers, your default condition when adding Mind Probe with the Telecommunication Limitation and working via your Mind Reading contact, will NOT work across language barriers. Or, it's perfectly RAW to be able to add the Universal Enhancement to Mind Probe, but not Telecommunication-Telesend or Mind Reading; if you don't share a language with your subject, you can neither send nor receive surface thoughts, yet you can still use Mind Probe, even when it has the Telecommunication Limitation and you're only able to probe via a Mind Reading contact.

If I've got the RAW wrong, please let me know. If you think insisting that telepaths can either work across language or not (as opposed to working for some abilities but not others) is silly, you are free to convince me by sighting counter examples in beloved fiction. For what it's worth, I have a Vulcan in my Star Trek campaign and that's why this is coming up.
I see your point but two things.
1) buying the advantage for each is a game mechanic and balance thing not something you would think about from the charecter or tv audience point of view.
2) reading surface thougts or sending them is different then probing and that level may not rely on language as much. could go both ways as your translating your surface thoughts into your language as you organize them or deep thoughts are just a umble of shared patterns/images and ideas.
I would buy the enhancement again
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2011, 06:32 AM   #9
Captain Joy
 
Captain Joy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Heartland, U.S.A.
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
(Telecommunication, -20%) does not cause the limited advantage to work through Telecommunication. It simply requires that you have established Telecommunication -based contact with the desired subject -and- that you are maintaining Telecommunication -based contact with the desired subject.

Consider (Telecommunication, -20%) to be a rephrased (Accessibility: Only those I am currently using Telecommunication to communicate with, -20%).

A -20% limitation should not also provide the effects of a +50% enhancement for free, simply because you bought that enhancement on a completely different advantage.
Okay, I'm waffling. How does the forum community feel about this argument?

I have Telecommunication-Telesend and Mind Reading with the Telecommunications Limitation. I use Long Distance Modifiers when trying to transmit my thoughts at range with additional penalties if I can't see them because that's the way Telecommunication-Telesend works [B91]. Normally, I must touch or be able to see my subject for Mind Reading to work [B69]; but with the Telecommunications Limitation, it "only work on those I'm presently in contact with via Telecommunication" [B70]. My question is this: must I still touch or be able to see my subject in order to read their mind?

I would answer this: no. The Telecommunications Limitation establishes that I must first establish contact via Telecommunications and that this is both necessary and (I say) sufficient. The previous restriction of requiring a touch or being able to see them no longer applies.

If you agree with the above, then aren't you conceding that Mind Meld with the Telecommunications Limitation is basically working *through* Telecommunications? Maybe the Telecommunications Limitation is priced at -20% not because it hampers the ability it's applied to, but to lower the cost of purchasing Telecommunication and Mind Reading (or any other appropriate advantage) together.

Consider this. Mind Probe requires that "you must first either touch your subject or successfully read his mind with Mind Reading" [B69]. The Mind Probe advantage cost is 20 points whether you have Mind Reading or not. So, having Mind Reading makes Mind Probe much more effective, but the cost of Mind Probe isn't increased. Similarly, having Mind Reading with the Telecommunication Limitation may well be much more effective because of various enhancements applied to Telecommunication, but the cost of Mind Reading shouldn't be increased.

Last edited by Captain Joy; 06-06-2011 at 07:11 AM. Reason: Added Mind Probe paragraph
Captain Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2011, 09:45 AM   #10
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: [Psionic Powers] Telecommunication Universal Enhancement Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Okay, I'm waffling. How does the forum community feel about this argument?

I have Telecommunication-Telesend and Mind Reading with the Telecommunications Limitation. I use Long Distance Modifiers when trying to transmit my thoughts at range with additional penalties if I can't see them because that's the way Telecommunication-Telesend works [B91]. Normally, I must touch or be able to see my subject for Mind Reading to work [B69]; but with the Telecommunications Limitation, it "only work on those I'm presently in contact with via Telecommunication" [B70]. My question is this: must I still touch or be able to see my subject in order to read their mind?
If you are using telecommunication on them you are considered to be touching them.

Quote:
If you agree with the above, then aren't you conceding that Mind Meld with the Telecommunications Limitation is basically working *through* Telecommunications?
I consider that to be irrelevant. I don't want to make it so that someone with the ability to read minds and ignore language barriers while doing so, automatically will have the ability to broadcast understandable to non-telepaths without even knowing what their language is, even to multiple non-telepaths without a language in common just because that will be so much cheaper. Telecommunication does not receive and therefore has nothing to translate coming from the other end. It's only used to touch the people you want to mind-read.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
enhancements, limitations, psionic powers, techniques, universal

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.