I have a query about imbuements. Of the Defensive kind.

[Jaware]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

If you want to use it with both easily, you need to buy both Shield and Armor specialities, yes. Note that they default to each other at -4, so if you have Energizing Defense (Shield) at 15, you effectively have Energizing Defense (Armor) at 11.

... I see. It seems to me that that makes energized defense exxxtttrrreeemmmlllyyyy expensive point cost.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Separate pools, yes, and with caps that depend on how much skill you have in the relevant speciality. You should be able to use Energizing Defense (Shield) to block an attack and then, if it still does enough damage to completely destroy the shield, use Energizing Defense (Armor) to try to block however many more damage remains.

How do the pools work? Say your shield has a cap Cp of 10. And then your armor one is cap CP of 6. Does it drain 1 cp from them each? And advantages bleed out the same way? On top of say 5 points in both, but you can't buy strength because there's not 10 cp.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Yes, Defensive Imbuements follow the general rules for Imbuements, which let you roll at -5 to ignore the FP cost

That's what i thought.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

If you're activating a Defensive Imbuement in response to an attack, then the roll is against the standard number for defenses, 1/2 skill +3 +1 for Combat Reflexes (and I'd allow Enhanced Defense (Single Imbuement Skill) for 5 points per level, or (All Imbuement Skills) for 10 points/level). If you anticipate being attacked, you can activate a Defensive Imbuement on your own turn, with a straight skill roll.

That is what I thought as well.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Energizing Defense is based on the Absorption enhancement for Damage Resistance. Of course, Absorption also doesn't specify when the points can be used, but I'm inclined to say that using them is a free action that can be done even on someone else's turn. On the other hand, that's a lot of potential rolls against Energizing Defense, so I'd suggest limiting the player to only rolling to assign the points immediately after they've been hit, or on their own turn.

that's what I was going to do. With the exception of hp and fp. I was gonna let that just like you said.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Jaware

... I see. It seems to me that that makes energized defense exxxtttrrreeemmmlllyyyy expensive point cost.

I don't think it does. That's how all General Imbuements work. In any case, you'll usually only be using one, since most attacks won't break a shield anyway. If someone wants to be able to both attempt a block and, if that fails, still absorb the damage with their armor, well, they should pay more points for that. Or, just buy Energized Defense (Shield) up to, say, level 20, and just default Energized Defense (Armor) from it, at skill-16, which is still quite respectable.

Originally Posted by Jaware

How do the pools work? Say your shield has a cap Cp of 10. And then your armor one is cap CP of 6. Does it drain 1 cp from them each?

I would rule that each pool is separate, and they drain at the same time. So if you stopped 5 points of damage with your shield, and then another 5 points with your armor, you'd have two pools of 5 points each, and at the end of your turn, both would lose 1 point, leaving you with 4 in each.

Of course, all that is a lot of bookkeeping, and, as you've observed, the character who can do that easily is paying for the privilege, buying both skills up. So you could just merge the pools. I'd allow the higher cap to apply, as well. I doubt it would break much to do so.

Originally Posted by Jaware

And advantages bleed out the same way? On top of say 5 points in both, but you can't buy strength because there's not 10 cp.

If you split the pools, I'd recommend dividing the traits up similarly, yes. Again, not necessarily for balance reasons, but for easier bookkeeping - it sounds like a headache to me to buy ST +1 with 5 points from each pool, and then having to track which pool is filling and draining, and making sure they both have enough points in them to keep the ST topped up.

[Jaware]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I don't think it does. That's how all General Imbuements work. In any case, you'll usually only be using one, since most attacks won't break a shield anyway. If someone wants to be able to both attempt a block and, if that fails, still absorb the damage with their armor, well, they should pay more points for that. Or, just buy Energized Defense (Shield) up to, say, level 20, and just default Energized Defense (Armor) from it, at skill-16, which is still quite respectable.

I was talking about the amount of Cp required for the skill to be that high vs How effective and useful it is. For a character with a low skill in EngDef, say for example a 16, that doesn't give a very large cup size of 8. Not to mention buying advantages, like say DR, gives a roll of 10 and over half the pool in said cup.

Granted, a skill 25 EngDef character is infinitely more useful skill wise and what he can do with it. It's just that level of skill is probably around some 40-50cp just in that one skill.

I'm trying to see if this particular Imbuement is useable for lower skill characters. As a "starter" imbuement so to speak.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I would rule that each pool is separate, and they drain at the same time. So if you stopped 5 points of damage with your shield, and then another 5 points with your armor, you'd have two pools of 5 points each, and at the end of your turn, both would lose 1 point, leaving you with 4 in each.

Of course, all that is a lot of bookkeeping, and, as you've observed, the character who can do that easily is paying for the privilege, buying both skills up. So you could just merge the pools. I'd allow the higher cap to apply, as well. I doubt it would break much to do so.

My next question is a little more hard to explain. I don't fully grasp the concept of the Skill cup size.

When one allocates the points. Say for example, a Cap Cup size of 8, buys HP above max at 2 pts a level. And spends all 8cp he earned that way. Is that all that he can do? Or is his "cup" considered empty again? Letting him continue absorbing like normal? Say he blocks another attack and gets another 8 cp in his cup. Is it already full of those that he allocated? Or are those allocated Cp set aside (as the HPup in this example) and his cup emptied for him to start filling again?

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

If you split the pools, I'd recommend dividing the traits up similarly, yes. Again, not necessarily for balance reasons, but for easier bookkeeping - it sounds like a headache to me to buy ST +1 with 5 points from each pool, and then having to track which pool is filling and draining, and making sure they both have enough points in them to keep the ST topped up.

I don't know about that. That seems like soooooooo much unneccessary book keeping...

As an off handed question, could you say the Maximum size of your cppool be your Dr+half your skill?

How many things would that break? It seems to me that it would make lower skill users less super wimpy, while at the same time make super high skill users still not effecting them much.

For example Light chain mail giving 3/1*, and skill 16 with EngDef giving Cap pool size 8, that would make the pool only 8+3. Or 11.

Similarly a light chain mail on a high skill EngDef of say skill 20, having a cap skill of 10+3 or 13.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Jaware

I was talking about the amount of Cp required for the skill to be that high vs How effective and useful it is. For a character with a low skill in EngDef, say for example a 16, that doesn't give a very large cup size of 8.

Note that the cap is the higher of half skill, or full DR. And for the shield, it should probably be the shield's DR+HP - i.e., the amount of "cover DR" the shield gives you, before being destroyed. In any case, I would dispute that a pool of 8 points is "small". Sure, you're not buying many big advantages with it. But you could heal 4 HP with it, or 2 FP and have 2 left over, both of which are significant benefits in combat.

Originally Posted by Jaware

Granted, a skill 25 EngDef character is infinitely more useful skill wise and what he can do with it. It's just that level of skill is probably around some 40-50cp just in that one skill.

Well, first of all, skill 25 is huge. That means a character who can store 12 points, and regularly improve any trait they can afford and ignore the FP cost of Energizing Defense in the first place. And because those modifiers apply to different rolls (the FP cost only applies to the roll to absorb damage, and the modifiers for what type of trait you're boosting only apply to the roll when you're boosting them, which doesn't cost FP), they'll always be at effective skill 19 or 20. In fact, I would argue that skill-25 in Energizing Defense is just excessive. You don't need it, skill-20 would cover almost all uses just fine.

Originally Posted by Jaware

I'm trying to see if this particular Imbuement is useable for lower skill characters. As a "starter" imbuement so to speak.

I would say it's definitely useful as a starter imbuement. Say a character has skill-12, which, if they haven't bought up the controlling attribute for their Imbuement skills at all, still only costs 16 points. They have a pool of 6 points if their armor DR is 6 or less, allowing them to heal 2 FP or 3 HP, or increase FP or HP over their normal maximum, which they only need to roll at -2 for, giving them 50% odds.

Originally Posted by Jaware

When one allocates the points. Say for example, a Cap Cup size of 8, buys HP above max at 2 pts a level. And spends all 8cp he earned that way. Is that all that he can do? Or is his "cup" considered empty again?

No, that's all he can do - points allocated to traits do still count against the cap. With the exception of points spent to heal FP/HP, which vanish.

Originally Posted by Jaware

As an off handed question, could you say the Maximum size of your cppool be your Dr+half your skill?

That makes it better than the Absorption enhancement, which I don't think is a good idea.

Originally Posted by Jaware

It seems to me that it would make lower skill users less super wimpy, while at the same time make super high skill users still not effecting them much.

Again, it's the higher of DR or half skill. Even in a medieval setting, you can find decently high DR, and someone interested in Energizing Defense, just like any other Defensive Imbuement, should be investing in that. At TL 4, for example, you could get Heavy Plate torso armor for DR 9 (and to answer the obvious question, your cap should be set by your torso armor's DR, or the highest DR elsewhere if you have no torso DR). That exceeds anything but Skill-20 in Energizing Defense, for a cap. You could even layer that, if you were willing to take a DX penalty. Get heavy mail underneath the plate, and now you have DR 14, and a similarly-sized cap.

[Refplace]

My main problem with Imbuements is there is no clear design or Under The Hood system for making new ones. If there is I haven't been able to figure it out.

[Jaware]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Note that the cap is the higher of half skill, or full DR. And for the shield, it should probably be the shield's DR+HP - i.e., the amount of "cover DR" the shield gives you, before being destroyed. In any case, I would dispute that a pool of 8 points is "small". Sure, you're not buying many big advantages with it. But you could heal 4 HP with it, or 2 FP and have 2 left over, both of which are significant benefits in combat.



Well, first of all, skill 25 is huge. That means a character who can store 12 points, and regularly improve any trait they can afford and ignore the FP cost of Energizing Defense in the first place. And because those modifiers apply to different rolls (the FP cost only applies to the roll to absorb damage, and the modifiers for what type of trait you're boosting only apply to the roll when you're boosting them, which doesn't cost FP), they'll always be at effective skill 19 or 20. In fact, I would argue that skill-25 in Energizing Defense is just excessive. You don't need it, skill-20 would cover almost all uses just fine.




I would say it's definitely useful as a starter imbuement. Say a character has skill-12, which, if they haven't bought up the controlling attribute for their Imbuement skills at all, still only costs 16 points. They have a pool of 6 points if their armor DR is 6 or less, allowing them to heal 2 FP or 3 HP, or increase FP or HP over their normal maximum, which they only need to roll at -2 for, giving them 50% odds.



No, that's all he can do - points allocated to traits do still count against the cap. With the exception of points spent to heal FP/HP, which vanish.



That makes it better than the Absorption enhancement, which I don't think is a good idea.



Again, it's the higher of DR or half skill. Even in a medieval setting, you can find decently high DR, and someone interested in Energizing Defense, just like any other Defensive Imbuement, should be investing in that. At TL 4, for example, you could get Heavy Plate torso armor for DR 9 (and to answer the obvious question, your cap should be set by your torso armor's DR, or the highest DR elsewhere if you have no torso DR). That exceeds anything but Skill-20 in Energizing Defense, for a cap. You could even layer that, if you were willing to take a DX penalty. Get heavy mail underneath the plate, and now you have DR 14, and a similarly-sized cap.

Well, I believe that pretty much answers my questions.

I appreciate it kindly.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Refplace

My main problem with Imbuements is there is no clear design or Under The Hood system for making new ones. If there is I haven't been able to figure it out.

More of an art than a science, I'm afraid. While there's some correlation between enhancement value/point cost and the required level of Imbue, it's not strong. Consider, for example, Ghostly Weapon vs. Electric Weapon. Both add, effectively, +20% enhancements to attacks, Affects Insubstantial in the case of Ghostly Weapon and Surge for Electric Weapon. But Ghostly Weapon is Imbue 1, while Electric Weapon is Imbue 3.

If you want some rules of thumb, when I was building Defensive Imbuements, I roughly figured that Imbue 1 imbuements were those that either allowed you to affect opponents who were otherwise difficult but had no special bonuses once you could hit them (so, Ghostly Weapon and Spiritual Defense), affected a fairly limited target set (Toxic Strike, for example, limits your damage to only living creatures, and doesn't really do more damage to them, mostly, while Rigid Armor protects against blunt trauma only, which is a pretty limited set of damage), or has a pretty narrow effect that won't generally directly harm the target (Stealthy Attack or Traumatic Attack, which both don't enhance damage at all, just make it, respectively, harder to see the attack or double knockback, or Expand Armor, which just lets you apply DR from one part of the body to another part).

Imbue 2 is the realm of skills that add a significant benefit to your weapon or armor that isn't extra damage (Annihilating Weapon, for example, lets you damage people parrying you or who you parry, while Blinding Defense lets you blind people who attack you), and most effects that convert your damage to another type that's useful against most targets (Burning, Cutting, Fatiguing, and Piercing Strikes).

Imbue 3 is for skills that significantly increase your damage potential (such as Conic Blast that lets you hit multiple targets, Continuing Attack that lets you repeat damage, and so forth), significantly increasing your defenses against a damage type (all the Defensive Imbuement skills that improve DR against a specific damage type fall into Imbue 3), allowing you to extend your defense to others (Widen Shield), or extremely flexible skills that let you choose the effects you have on targets (Drugged or Envenomed Weapon).

For modifiers to a skill, again, it's a bit fuzzy, but a reasonable rule of thumb is -1 to skill for each +10% enhancement it suggests. In some cases, you do need to tweak this to make it a reasonable progression. For example, Continuing Attack imposes a flat -2 per improvement in the time delay between cycles. Simply applying the "-1 = +10%" rule would suggest that it should be -1 for 1 hour, an additional -2 for a minute, another -1 for ten seconds, and then a final -5 for one second. But that's complex and annoying. But if you average the enhancement value for those different levels of Cyclic, you actually get a number close to +20%, which meshes nicely with the -2 per level that Imbuements actually uses.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Jaware

Well, I believe that pretty much answers my questions.

I appreciate it kindly.

Happy to help!

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Refplace

My main problem with Imbuements is there is no clear design or Under The Hood system for making new ones. If there is I haven't been able to figure it out.

Ditto.

I can usually wrinkle out how a power is made... but Imbuements feel very much to be "We felt these prices were correct".