Hybrid options by talent - house rules

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I don't disagree, but I think a better solution might be the creation of new talents to provide more variety for character builds. Or maybe break out some of the new capabilities bundled in the Expertise and Mastery into independent talents.

Yeah I agree that this is definitely one way to go. I have had lists of dozens of new talents, split up talents, feat like talents, sub-skill talents and missing skill talents. But I realized that many talents can be set up as mundane talents and fit into the game that way. The rest my players can suggest and it will be a special just for them. House rules have a tendency to bloat. So I go with KISS. Minimum changes to the rules text. And try to avoid introducing completely new mini rules systems. And yet I break this rule myself again and again. But I try. My recent suggestion of new weapon type bonuses is an excellent example of lots of extra rules text, that doesn't do a lot for the game. Is it really needed? :-)

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

"Gatekeeping" to me isn't really a good thing in TFT that isn't a level-based system. So this is basically the main reason I want to change it. The other reason is that I want to avoid the cookie-cutter builds. Every UC character will look the same, and progress the same. Every broadsword Fencing Master will also look the same. The gatekeeping in combination with exploding attribute XP cost (which is a good thing to avoid XP bloat even though it was overdone) means that minimum IQ 13, minimum DX14, and minimum ST12 doesn't leave much wriggle room or variation.

Most people miss this, but TFT just applies the concept of 'level' more abstractly... each point of ST, DX and IQ each represent one-third of a level in more traditional level-based RPGs. Think about it, each 'level' in those other games typically provide an increase to hit points, combat prowess and knowledge, but in TFT those advancements are aquired individually.

Setting game design theory aside, however, you and I are actually on the same page philosophically, I think... we both seem to see the same core issues with several of the Legacy revisions but we have different opinions about the 'fix' which is fine. I'm actually very interested in the new talents you and your group have come up with. You should post them under the Cidri's got Talent! thread.

[hcobb]

Spell Throwing IQ 8 A figure with this talent subtracts one DX per megahex for Thrown and Special spells that normally subtract one DX per hex. The range of these spells is also increased from the usual base ST in hexes to base ST in megahexes. Costs two memory points for a Hero or four for a Wizard.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

If you refer to the old +1 damage bonus from throwing stuff hard and accurate. It is already gone. Now you only get +2DX.

I referred to the +2 DX bonus. I don't think it is a good thing for Thrown spells (and I can only posit that SJ agreed, since Thrown Weapons does to apply to spells). I suggest an alternative Thrown Spells talent that does not give a DX bonus, but that can offset up to three hexes' worth of range penalties. In one of my campaigns, this is available to wizards who have joined a particular wizardly society.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I referred to the +2 DX bonus. I don't think it is a good thing for Thrown spells (and I can only posit that SJ agreed, since Thrown Weapons does to apply to spells). I suggest an alternative Thrown Spells talent that does not give a DX bonus, but that can offset up to three hexes' worth of range penalties. In one of my campaigns, this is available to wizards who have joined a particular wizardly society.

TBH, I've always thought that the term 'thrown' was an unfortunate (and possibly inaccurate) characterization of how those spells actually work. For me the range penalties applied by the rules reflect the magic's reduced efficacy over distances, not the wizard's accuracy. In other words, the potency of the mana-construct that makes up 'thrown' spells will decay rapidly once they reach a certain distance from their source, the caster.

That said, the latter suggestion could still work (in my campaign) with a slight change in flavor... turn it into more of a signal boosting talent than a range boosting one.

Then again, I'm probably over-thinking this. ;)

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Spell Throwing IQ 8 A figure with this talent subtracts one DX per megahex for Thrown and Special spells that normally subtract one DX per hex. The range of these spells is also increased from the usual base ST in hexes to base ST in megahexes. Costs two memory points for a Hero or four for a Wizard.

This will completely change the balance of spells, so that Thrown spells will be able to be used effectively at vastly greater ranges than before.

Since many Thrown spells have no concept of "resistance", EXCEPT for the range penalty, this talent would remove the only thing balancing the very powerful effects of many Thown spells.

All combat wizards would want this, and some debilitating spell such as Freeze or Sleep or Curse, and it would become practical to inflict magic from so far away that people might have little chance to figure out who was doing it, etc.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Skarg

This will completely change the balance of spells, so that Thrown spells will be able to be used effectively at vastly greater ranges than before.

Since many Thrown spells have no concept of "resistance", EXCEPT for the range penalty, this talent would remove the only thing balancing the very powerful effects of many Thown spells.

Agreed

All combat wizards would want this, and some debilitating spell such as Freeze or Sleep or Curse, and it would become practical to inflict magic from so far away that people might have little chance to figure out who was doing it, etc.

This is why this talent I use in one of my games is only available to wizards who have joined a particular magical order, paying for the privilege by learning several prerequisites and swearing obedience to the order.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I referred to the +2 DX bonus. I don't think it is a good thing for Thrown spells (and I can only posit that SJ agreed, since Thrown Weapons does to apply to spells). I suggest an alternative Thrown Spells talent that does not give a DX bonus, but that can offset up to three hexes' worth of range penalties. In one of my campaigns, this is available to wizards who have joined a particular wizardly society.

Yeah, that would make more sense, but then it should be the same for normal Thrown Weapons. And we still have the problem with adding a completely new talent instead of just adjusting an existing one. And I would feel the need to do the same for Missile Weapons talent too.

It is a good thing to offer wizards more talent options, because that means they take fewer spells, which in turns means that you can have serveral wizard in a party and they can have completely different sets of spells.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

Yeah, that would make more sense, but then it should be the same for normal Thrown Weapons.

Nothing wrong with that. But, I don't think it logically follows that you would have to. To expand upon TippetsTX's comment above, the term "Thrown Spell" could be seen as a mere metaphor--just an analog, mechanics-wise, of the literally thrown weapons from Melee. But thrown weapons are easier to defend against than thrown spells, so it makes some sense to not actually give a bonus for casting the spells.

It is a good thing to offer wizards more talent options, because that means they take fewer spells, which in turns means that you can have serveral wizard in a party and they can have completely different sets of spells.

Right on!

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

For me the range penalties applied by the rules reflect the magic's reduced efficacy over distances, not the wizard's accuracy. In other words, the potency of the mana-construct that makes up 'thrown' spells will decay rapidly once they reach a certain distance from their source, the caster.

Nicely said, and also the way I always thought of it. I see the DX roll for a thrown weapon as a test of aim, but the DX roll for a (T) spell is instead a test of the caster's focus. This is echoed in the RAW: a thrown weapon that misses the intended target can hit the next person in the LOS, but a (T) spell that misses its subject is simply a failed spell, and it cannot hit anyone else. Spells and weapons are very different things.

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

But I have always been a little bit against (T) spells being so hard to aim.

But I do sympathize with your initial point Nils. In my earliest experience with TFT, wizards were often too reluctant to even try (T) spells because of the low success rate, leaving those interesting spells very underutilized. My group's house rule to encourage more (T) spells while avoiding overkill actually involved minor upgrades to the original Staff spell:

With the Staff in hand, we gave a wizard +1 DX for casting any (T) spell, and a roll of only 2d6 vs DX to cast a (T) spell on themself, or anyone being voluntarily touched by the Staff. Thus we effectively increased the range by only a modest 1 hex; and it seemed reasonable that a (T) spell on yourself or an adjacent volunteer should almost be automatically successful. (Aside: we also gave the Staff the ability to emit 1 torchlight of "Mage Light" at will, and to strike a small spark to aid in lighting campfires and regular torches; tiny tweaks that made wizards instantly more popular among adventurers :)

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

Slightly different ways to do it, and both needs to make a choice early in their careers. So your initial "class" choice matters. One could just say; pay about 5 points and you count as both. But that is a little boring. :-)

One man's boring is another man's efficient :) My group's "Wizardy Talent" cost 5 points, or as discussed in a thread we had on that subject it could be broken into an Apprentice Talent and a Wizardry Talent that cost 5 or 6 total, with the former a prerequisite for the latter. Wizardry entitled the figure to learn a number of spells up to their IQ, and learn additional talents at the same cost as anyone else. So on the one hand you had to tie up about half your talent points to start as a wizard, but you never had to pay double to learn other things. That fulfills your goal as well, giving the wizards who want to do it the room to learn a sub-career. Then there was an Advanced Wizardry talent for those that only wanted to study magic (tying up a second big chunk of talent points in the process.)