GURPS Dune

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by AllenOwen

LOL You try breathing only a cubic meter of air and see how long you last. Preposterous.

Rather obviously, I was not suggesting a cubic meter of air; that was the volume of densely packed spice to spice to slowly mix in with the air.

Only from external influences. Yueh from the Harkonnens holding his wife and Jessica from her love of the Duke.

If Jessica’s motivation is an ‘external influence’ then so could be is motivation of a navigator with wanderlust.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Quoted from the original Dune book:

Thanks for that!

And I see that the term I should be using is ‘deep spice addiction’. And so no, the typical House noble does not have have a deep spice addiction.

As I thought, Fremen have deep spice addiction. I will note that the concentration of spice in the atmosphere on Arrakis might be enough to keep a navigator alive. The players could meet a young failed navigator at a Dune cantina!

Originally Posted by A Ladder

Here's my crack at The Voice.

That is awesome! Thanks!

The scene I remember is Paul (weak in The Voice) using is to tell kidnappers to take the gag off Jessica. Jessica then tells the kidnapper to untie Paul. That action would have taken a minute, but I think it still fits with your rules.

Originally Posted by Plane

I have to assume that breathing/digesting spice somehow denatures it as it affects the body to slow aging / create prescience so that whatever byproducts are produced by metabolizing it don't have the same effect.

I was not suggesting recovering the consumed Spice, I was just pointing out that the air (that the spice is mixed with) gets recycled.

If this were possible the the navigators never would've been scared by the Emperor controlling Arrakis or threatened by nuking the supply.

A bad jump was possible, no? I think it is in-cannon to assume the navigators carry a years worth of Spice routinely. If so, a rouge navigator managing to hoard 10x that amount is not unreasonable.

[A Ladder]

Originally Posted by beetle496

That is awesome! Thanks!

The scene I remember is Paul (weak in The Voice) using is to tell kidnappers to take the gag off Jessica. Jessica then tells the kidnapper to untie Paul. That action would have taken a minute, but I think it still fits with your rules.

Well I believe Jessica used some sex appeal to make sure that her use in the Voice stuck. Possibly giving them a penalty to resist? I dunno.
Feel free to tweak my build to match your perception of how it works.

If you don't like that it's an Advantage, just treat the [10] point cost as a UB to gain access to the skill.


Anyway, here's my take on the Saurdakar:

Sardaukar should essentially be Special Forces in Space ™.
They are the highest threat in the galaxy and should be treated as such.

Attributes should put them in the super human range
Start at maybe ST 15, DX 13, IQ 12, HT 12, etc. and go up from there. Higher secondary characteristics would be in the form of more HP, Per, and Will.

Since they’re considered super warriors we need to start with the basic “warrior” package: Combat Reflexes and High Pain Threshold. I would give them Fit or possibly Very Fit. Consider giving them Weapon Master or Trained by a Master.

I would also state that they are experts are anything martial. Skill 16 minimum in any of their combat skills. I would suggest 18+ for those who like to do cinematic/space opera campaigns and go 16 for those who follow the cult of stat normalization.
So primary weapon skill(s) at 18, backup weapons and hand to hand at 16.
I’d give them the suite of “special forces” skill: camouflage, climbing, electronic operations: communications, escape, fast-draw, first aid, forced entry, holdout, intimidation, observation, soldier, stealth, survival, tactics, throwing, and various vehicle operating skills. All at high levels (so at attribute level and up to attribute+2).

I could see Sardaukar also having Specialist lenses. So Commanders, Medics, Pilots, Sappers, Shock Troops, etc.
Commanders would have Intelligence Analysis, Leadership, Strategy, and higher Tactics.
Medics would have Physician, Surgery, techniques for quicker battlefield medicine, and possibly Pharmacy.
Pilots would have Piloting, higher vehicle operating skills, and mechanic.
Sappers would have Chemistry, Explosives, Architecture, higher forced entry, etc.
Shock Troops would have Fearlessness, Hard to Subdue, maybe more HP, and wear armor under their shields (ceramic or something).

Give them the best tactical military gear and go for it: Light weight Personal shields, lasguns (for the rabble), very fine + very balanced blades, force entry gear, “space” NVGs, medical supplies, climbing gear, etc. Sardaukar also hide weapons on themselves so give some of their gear the Disguised modifier.

Sardaukar should not be just “as-good” as PCs but should be scary for them to encounter. Play them smart, brutal, and dangerous.

Their disadvantages should include Duty (To the Empire), Sense of Duty (the Emperor), and Fanaticism (the crazy +Will version, to the Emperor). You should not be able to turn one of them through coercion or bribery.

[AllenOwen]

Originally Posted by beetle496

As I thought, Fremen have deep spice addiction. I will note that the concentration of spice in the atmosphere on Arrakis might be enough to keep a navigator alive. The players could meet a young failed navigator at a Dune cantina!


T

Where are you getting that there's enough spice in the air that it could keep a Navigator alive? Are you just making things up now? Source please. Paul was affected due to a predisposition of genetics, the Kwistaz Haderach. If that's the case, then every Fremen and everyone else who lives there would be a mutated fish person.. You know that the reason the Fremen are heavily addicted to it is due to their diet, laden with spice? It is in all their food. Not everybody who eats food on Arrakis eats a Fremen diet. You realize that navigators are fish like? That's how they are described in Dune Messiah. They can't walk on land, and float in a rather large tank...so no you won't be meeting a "failed" Navigator in a Dune cantina.

Why do I feel like I'm reading Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's Dune books?

[Anders]

Originally Posted by A Ladder

Anyway, here's my take on the Saurdakar:

Sardaukar should essentially be Special Forces in Space ™.
They are the highest threat in the galaxy and should be treated as such.

Attributes should put them in the super human range
Start at maybe ST 15, DX 13, IQ 12, HT 12, etc. and go up from there. Higher secondary characteristics would be in the form of more HP, Per, and Will.

Since they’re considered super warriors we need to start with the basic “warrior” package: Combat Reflexes and High Pain Threshold. I would give them Fit or possibly Very Fit. Consider giving them Weapon Master or Trained by a Master.

We need a Sardaukar vs. Space Marines death match.

[AllenOwen]

Good odds that Sardaukar are the inspiration for Space Marines.

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by AllenOwen

Where are you getting that there's enough spice in the air that it could keep a Navigator alive?

Yes, I am just making things up. Well, asking if anything in the books (especially the later ones) contradicts what I am proposing. So far, I think I am good!

You realize that navigators are fish like? That's how they are described in Dune Messiah. They can't walk on land, and float in a rather large tank.

That is a 3rd stage navigator. As I recall, the strong implication is that they are born human.

…so no you won't be meeting a "failed" Navigator in a Dune cantina.

She would have to be stage 0, assuming that is a thing, just starting her studies, and probably an attendant or crew to a 2nd stage navigator.

Thank you for acknowledging that the Fremen natives are deep Spice addicts. That seems like the environment should be enough Spice to keep our young navigator alive, assuming she abdicated her responsibilities on Arrakis.

[AllenOwen]

Like the Guild is gonna let a navigator just quit. They'd have her killed, most ricky-tick; the Guild keeps its secrets and won't risk letting a ex navigator live. Even if she knew nothing, they still won't risk it. At least, they'd make an object lesson out of her. Thinking about quitting as a navigator? Think twice!

Deep spice addicts from diet, not breathing the air. Everyone who so much as set foot on Arrakis and took a breath would be addicted. Plenty of spice workers left the planet when the Atreides took over, of their own free will. And they'd been working there for years at that point. If they were deeply addicted, they'd go insane and then die after they left. And spice isn't cheap.

This is too much like something Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson wrote. That might be a compliment, depending on your point of view. I didn't like them, at all. Dune is not a sandbox, and you end up making it something it isn't if you tried to make it so. Even if you had a navigator, you still can't use her/him/it for anything. Only the Guild had foldspace capable ships. And I think only 3rd stage navigators can actually, you know, navigate.

[beetle496]

Originally Posted by A Ladder

Well I believe Jessica used some sex appeal to make sure that her use in the Voice stuck. Possibly giving them a penalty to resist? I dunno.
Feel free to tweak my build to match your perception of how it works.

It’s very good I think. After watching this great video overview of the first book, I must say that the folks noting that familiarity with the target is needed — are right on the money!

If you don't like that it's an Advantage, just treat the [10] point cost as a UB to gain access to the skill.

Yes, anyone who has it needs UB or Trained by Master.

Anyway, here's my take on the Sardaukar:

That is all great too! And I will use if a player wants to have that background. The books say they are tough, but it does not show that. Towards the end of the first book, a large deployment of Sardaukar are all but destroyed by a small village of Fremen women, children, and old men. If you make the Sardaukar strong, the Fremen stats are ridiculous!

I would just give Sardaukar +2 rep and overconfidence. They are mooks.

Originally Posted by AllenOwen

Like the Guild is gonna let a navigator just quit. They'd have her killed, most ricky-tick; the Guild keeps its secrets and won't risk letting a ex navigator live.

I disagree. (1) Navigators with ennui might be common, and somewhat tolerated. (2) Or this is example is so rare that there is no precedent, and why should the Guild really care? (3) The circumstances of separation might be that she was left for dead, or she may have faked her death.

Deep spice addicts from diet, not breathing the air.

Agreed.

[Otherwise,] Everyone who so much as set foot on Arrakis and took a breath would be addicted. Plenty of spice workers left the planet when the Atreides took over, of their own free will. And they'd been working there for years at that point. If they were deeply addicted, they'd go insane and then die after they left. And spice isn't cheap.

That all makes sense. Still, there's enough Spice available in Arrakis environment to keep a Stage 0 navigator alive, especially if she ‘goes native’.

Dune is not a sandbox, and you end up making it something it isn't if you tried to make it so.

I think a GM has to make it into more of a sandbox to RP with it.

Even if you had a navigator, you still can't use her/him/it for anything. Only the Guild had foldspace capable ships.

People have floated some good ideas for that problem!

And I think only 3rd stage navigators can actually, you know, navigate.

I agree that a padawan navigator cannot navigate. I have looked for some description of 2nd versus 3rd stage without success. The implication in the first book is that a 3rd stage navigator is very senior, not that 1st and 2nd navigators can’t navigate. After the 1984 movie, I presumed that each stage involved a pretty significant physical metamorphosis, much more than I had inferred from reading the book.

Mind you, I would not plan for a player to be a navigator. It is just if the players feel like they need a ship, I want to have given the idea a deal of thought ahead of time.

[Celjabba]

I wish I had a copy of the DUNE rpg, but the second hand prices are just insane.

Regarding the navigators, I remember there are 2 differents views :
-one is that a navigator fold space by mental power fueled by the spice.
In that case, no space travel without a navigator.
(or, possibly, forbidden technology)

-the other is that the navigator use the spice prescience to find a safe path, while the ship engine fold space.
In that case, travel without a navigator is possible, if dangerous. (how dangerous is left to the GM to decide).

I don't remember if Herbert ever indicated one way or other.

[A Ladder]

Originally Posted by beetle496

That is all great too! And I will use if a player wants to have that background. The books say they are tough, but it does not show that. Towards the end of the first book, a large deployment of Sardaukar are all but destroyed by a small village of Fremen women, children, and old men. If you make the Sardaukar strong, the Fremen stats are ridiculous!

I would just give Sardaukar +2 rep and overconfidence. They are mooks.

I disagree about Sardaukar being mooks. when the Harkonnens have their coup over the Atreides they needed a ton of emperial Sardakaur to take out the Atreides guards. Throughout the book we find out that house Atreides personnel are some the best trained fighters (due to the Weirding Way) and were really threatening the singular military superiority of the Sardaukar. Which is why the Emperor loaned the Harkonnens the Sardaukar in the first place.
[SPOILERS] Sardaukar are from the prison planet Salusa Secundus which is a harsh world environment much like Arrakis. It forces those who survive on it to the most hardened and toughened people. Which is why the Sardaukar take their ranks from the people who survive from the planet. [/SPOILERS]

I have a different interpretation of that scene. The Atreides theorize that the harsh conditions of Arrakis create hardened, tough people who are forced to be better just to survive. This makes the Fremen the perfect people to be elite fighters. We see in the later books that the Fremen, trained in the Weirding Way, are able to sweep the galaxy with Paul's Jihad in an unstoppable force.
The Fremen do have ridiculous stats. They come from a militant background, one that is ok teaching children and women how to fight, and are forged into hardened people in the harsh environment of Arrakis.
The Sardaukar were defeated due to the following: They were surprised that women and children could fight, they could not use their personal shields (which means that they probably took no thought to defense), and were in the Fremen's home ground. These are huge tactical mistakes coupled with Fremen being trained in martial skills to almost the same level would mean that the Sardaukar could be taken out.