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Old 09-23-2009, 07:35 PM   #11
Crakkerjakk
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

Yeah, a low crawl is not on your knees. A low crawl means your face is in the mud and your rifle is just barely out of it.
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
The way you described the situation, the best approach is to low-crawl (move away in the prone) until you reach some cover to put in between you and the gunner. Then you stand and move away.
Does that stand even with the fact that "grenades are falling on your current position"?
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

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Does that stand even with the fact that "grenades are falling on your current position"?
Depends. The most effective way to avoid getting fragged by a grenade is to be next to the ground. Since that's where they detonate, even a small ridge in between you and the explosion can save you. If you're in a crater, that's a bad place since anything landing nearby will roll towards you. But if you're on relatively flat terrain with slight ridges, hitting the deck is usually a good idea.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

Grenades falling on your position generally means you're within sprinting range, and should throw some back, then charge. Or just charge without taking time to throw. Less than 30yd is not the place to get low and slow, unless you have some cover. That's also not MG range.

-9 from range should be 70yd, and that's not grenade range.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

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Grenades falling on your position generally means you're within sprinting range, and should throw some back, then charge. Or just charge without taking time to throw. Less than 30yd is not the place to get low and slow, unless you have some cover. That's also not MG range.

-9 from range should be 70yd, and that's not grenade range.
I was assuming they were rifle grenades or something.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

This might be helpful if your players haven't gone all out in the situation yet. In a circumstance that has a MG as an obstacle, the the next question is: "what is the obstacle relative to your objective?".

If the PCs are Pinned down by the MG, then the options available to avoid it are plenty if they have the time and circumstance to maneuver around it to risks that better suit their strengths.

But if the MG is directly being an obstacle and cannot be avoided. Then one is faced with the statistical odds of surviving a MG encounter. The historical data regarding MG encounters where the MG is at an advantage is quite one sided.

In the firing quadrant of an MG with no other option but a direct approach is an undesired and preventable situation. This is because the Force Multiplier of an MG is near entire Squad (multiplied by entrenchment and fortification) put the PCs really against the wall. Expecting them to survive it, is one of those great stories to tell but the training that comes with the soldier's territory dictates to avoiding such killzone and advance in the best risk-acceptable way toward the opponent.

Q: Are there Frequent Fear Checks for the Grenades, Coming under direct Heavy Arms fire, and jumping against Superior force? (I think soldier ability modifier adds to the Fear Check as an extension of the discipline)

Other wise, in a direct confrontation of a fortified MG, you can throw in a bunch of NPC cannon fodder, a Lost Squad who happens to be in an opportune position, or A spotter who is able to relay to a few marksmen the MG position (as spotters are force multipliers also). In this way the PCs have a more plausible chance of beating the challenge without being overwhelmed (which may need them to roll criticals or success straight for a number of occasions).
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Yeah, a low crawl is not on your knees. A low crawl means your face is in the mud and your rifle is just barely out of it.
good times... good times...

I remember being taught in sniper school that -to be safe and avoid detection- you should always go one posture below what you feel is safe. For example, if you look at the situation and feel that you can safely walk, you should crouch; if you feel it's safe to crouch, crawl; if you feel it's safe to crawl (as in a high-crawl) you should low-crawl.

The mentality behind that was usually pretty different from what was behind my time with a full infantry platoon though. When moving as a platoon, speed was often considered more important. All things considered, I've found that having people on your side to cover you while you move tends to help quite a bit; moving in fire teams and buddy teams works pretty well.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to the OP really. Personally, I tend to try to avoid running head on toward an MG emplacement. I suppose if that were my only choice I'd have to go for it, but I can't recall any situation I've been in where something else didn't seem like a better idea. I really don't feel as though zig-zagging would help much without cover; most gunners would probably just lead you with the rounds and allow you to run into them or see where he/she is hitting and walk the rounds into you as they fire their burst.

I suppose if I'm ever in a situation similar to the famous WWII beach landing that I'll try prayer. I'm honestly not sure whether a sprint or a zig-zag would be better. For some reason I want to say sprinting, but there's really no logical reason that I think so.

The only situation I've been in which I can really say is similar to such a thing is when an Abrams mistakenly started firing on the position of my platoon during a night mission. What worked at that time was to radio to them and tell them to "stop f'ing shooting at us." I doubt that would work with the enemy though.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

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The only situation I've been in which I can really say is similar to such a thing is when an Abrams mistakenly started firing on the position of my platoon during a night mission. What worked at that time was to radio to them and tell them to "stop f'ing shooting at us." I doubt that would work with the enemy though.
If it did work, however, it would certainly qualify as an example for the Epic Skills thread. Probably either Intimidation or Diplomacy. Oh, and it would be a Crowning Moment of Awesome.

Now that I see the actual situation, I think I'll agree with those stating that a low-crawl is probably the safest bet. You'll be in the beaten zone longer, but you'll be a practically non-existent target. In addition to the -2 penalty to hit, you're also arguably behind partial cover (the ground) from the gunner's perspective. And, if another flare pops up, then unless you are particularly exposed you should be able to just remain motionless until it burns out and be relatively safe.
Now, the grenades add another layer of difficulty, but hugging the ground is generally the best way to deal with them as well (unless you have cover, that is).
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

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Originally Posted by Johnny Angel View Post
The only situation I've been in which I can really say is similar to such a thing is when an Abrams mistakenly started firing on the position of my platoon during a night mission. What worked at that time was to radio to them and tell them to "stop f'ing shooting at us." I doubt that would work with the enemy though.
A reserve air-winger battalion lit up my buddy's unit when they took fire from one side of a road.

My buddy was on patrol, took fire from one side, took cover on the other side, and then the wingers, who were now behind my buddy, saw the muzzle flashes and all just started blazing away. THey didn't have direct comms so they had to pass it up to stop effing shooting. Luckily the wingers were really bad shots and no one got hurt.
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Old 09-24-2009, 02:44 AM   #20
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Default Re: Moving under fire: zig zag or sprint?

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Truly random blind-fire should allow no Dodge roll . . . that's an attack from a source you can't see or anticipate. If bullets just graze into you from across a field or over a rise, they're no different from bullets fired by a concealed sniper or a man standing behind you.
I see. Thanks Kromm. The First World War just got more dangerous in time for tonight's session. No more dodging the random bullets! And it solves my original dilemma neatly and realistically. The gunner hits on a seven or less. If you crouch a five or less. But don't give him extra shots whatever you do, you can't dodge!

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Otherwise, note that the very fact you have a dodge vs. guns at all means you're already doing a zig-zag or similar. You don't need All-Out Defense to explain that. All-Out Defense is more "pause-move-pause-move" behavior, and against guns represents watching the beaten zone travel or the gunman shift his point of aim, and then reacting when you have an opening.
Given your first point this move-pause-move-pause makes more sense. You are putting more effort into keeping the nearby and clearly obvious source of danger in sight so that you are ready to take specific evasive action if they choose to fire at you.

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Q: Are there Frequent Fear Checks for the Grenades, Coming under direct Heavy Arms fire, and jumping against Superior force? (I think soldier ability modifier adds to the Fear Check as an extension of the discipline)
In this case they had to take a Will check or freeze for a few seconds. Would Fear checks have been better?

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Originally Posted by carllarson View Post
Grenades falling on your position generally means you're within sprinting range, and should throw some back, then charge. Or just charge without taking time to throw. Less than 30yd is not the place to get low and slow, unless you have some cover. That's also not MG range.

-9 from range should be 70yd, and that's not grenade range.
The machine gun was firing in enfilading fire. So it was 60 yards away shooting roughly parrellel with its own trench, the nearest point of the enemy trench was about 15-20 yards away. The German grenade team had strength 13 and stick grenades which gives them an impressive 53 yard range.

After some fear, confusion and pain from the grenades the PCs saw the Sergeant go down and then used some shellholes and an empty supply trench to flank the machine gun. They are now behind the gun.

I am particularly grateful for the military advice. It is not easy for an armchair soldier to know how real soldiers would react. That's one reason why I choose the First World War: the soldiers of the day did not have adequate or appropriate training for moving under fire, they had almost no concept of fire teams. So, I'm guessing, that places my players in a similar situation to the real soldiers of the First World War.
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