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Old 04-04-2019, 12:08 PM   #351
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

C'mon Racer, when are we gonna see a camper with 5 GG's?

;)
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Old 04-04-2019, 01:00 PM   #352
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

I posted it already elsewhere . I'll do an update when I find my notes ;-)
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Old 04-11-2019, 04:57 PM   #353
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

And of course I can't find my notes for my Menacer Camper with five Gauss Guns ... Will have to go through my books in storage as I can't seem to get it quite right on Combat Garage ..

Anyway here's a variant of a design for a defensive Compact , that Big Mac used against Spad's Flamethrower & MG armed incendiary Sedan ...

Panzer CM - Compact , X-Hvy Chassis , Hvy Suspension , Medium PP w/SCs , HTMs & 10pts FP Component Armour , 4 FP SB PR Tires , Driver w/SWC & 10pts FP CA , MG Front w/19 Shots HD & 1 Shot Std Ammo & 10pts FP CA , Link MG-HTMs , Composite Metal/Fireproof Plastic Armour : F7/40 , L0/34 , R0/34 , B7/40 , T0/10 , U0/12 , 2-10pt FP Wheelhubs F , 2-10pt Wheelguards B , Acceleration 5mph - 10mph w/HTMs , Top Speed 92.5mph , HC 3 , 4,438lbs , $14,600 .

Deutsch Autoworks came up with this model in response to repeat attacks on commuters on Southern German Autobahns . Bandits would cross the boarder & wreak havoc on lighter vehicles with Flamecloud & flame attacks on Tires - causing mass pileups . Striping any valuables off crashed cars & leaving rest for allies in salvage businesses to offer their 'services' at inflated prices ... Complete Fireproofing of this relatively tough compact gives it a better chance of surviving said hit-&-run attacks , exchange fire & keep on the road while the authorities respond to the incursions .

( Flubbed the sales blurb somewhat - Mac loves his German vehicles & characters ;-) Due to majority of Road Combat's being linear in nature , having Metal Armour on F+B facings proved surprising effective . Spad's HDFT & Incendiary MG Ammo washed & bounced off , while Mac chipped away at him in return . Great duel & much fun was had .
Add $400 for Body Armour & PFE for $15K package .
Note: our groups go with +33% DP Steelbelting Tires Rules from ADQ 6/4 & 7/1 . Thus they have 12DP . As the article in 7/1 states ... same weight & DP as a Solid and Fireproof to boot , for only $100 more ... . Hasn't caused any issues for us & as ADQ 6/4 states 'gives much nicer numbers' .
Against foes using multiple Flamecloud opponents , convert some more FP Armour to Metal & move a few points to Sides , Top & Bottom . Use , modify & enjoy . )
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Last edited by Racer; 04-11-2019 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:22 PM   #354
Magesmiley
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

2069 Hotshot -- Luxury, Extra-Heavy chassis, Heavy suspension, Large power plant w/SC, Fire Extinguisher, 4 Puncture-Resistant tires, Driver, Flamethrower in Turret w/extra magazine and 20 shots, 2 Linked Machine Guns Front, Flamethrower Back, Smart Link (both FTs), Plastic Armor: F30, L20, R20, B20, T25, U10, 2 5-pt Wheelguards Back, 2 5-pt Wheelhubs Front, Cargo: [4 spaces, 405 lbs. @ Top Speed 90], Acceleration 5, Top Speed 92.5, HC 3, 6195 lbs., $16450

Slightly upgraded from the classic version. Sufficient cargo for a couple of friends or other goodies.
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Old 04-13-2019, 04:28 PM   #355
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

In another thread I wondered how a stock Flamenco would stack up against 3 stock Poppers, questioning if lots of cheap was equivalent to or better than a little bit of OK. For the assessment to be realistic it need to be in the context of a scenario - so here goes.

Flamenco is out for a drive when he is jumped by 3 bandits on cheap bikes.

Flamenco is doing 55 (like a good citizen) at point of intercept. Bandits will only fire for effect once they have a reasonable chance of hitting (8 or less) but they can start firing at 10 or less to build the sustained fire bonus. If more than 1 bike is rendered incapable of effective combat the remainder will scarper.

The Bandits win if the Target is prevented from passing them (e.g. a mobility kill or forcing it to turn back). The Target wins if the Bandits are no longer capable of winning (i.e. he has moved out of range, they have no ammunition left or they have broken off combat).

In the analysis we assume Driver/Rider 0 and Gunner 0 (as otherwise we are testing the character skills chosen rather than the vehicles). The comparison is broken into several areas. Whilst something can be more than the sum of its parts, it usually isn't less.

Offensive Weapons.

Chance of hitting: The MG needs a 7, the RL needs an 8. As the bikes are -1 to hit compared to the Compact in all aspects this advantage is effectively cancelled out. Initially at least however there will be three RL attacks compared to a MG single attack. There is therefore a greater probability of at least one RL hitting per turn. For example if 8 is needed then a single attack has 15/36 chance of hitting. With three attacks there is only 7/36 chance of all of them missing i.e. 19/36 chance of at least one hitting.

Effect of each hit: The MG will take 8-9 hits on average to penetrate the Poppers front armour. The RL will take 5 hits on average to penetrate the Flamenco armour. MG hits have only 17% chance to cause greater than a D1 hazard. RL hits have a 72% chance to cause greater than a D1 hazard. Ina frontal attack there is a small chance that a tire instead of armour. This is unlikely to occur (1/12) and even if it does most of the time the tire will survive (3/6).

If the driver is skilful and the bikers careless there is a chance that the MG hit could be to the side and therefore bypass armour. In this case terminal damage is probable and this is a primary weakness of the Popper design. However the opportunities for such attacks are low in a road fight.

Defensive Weapons: The FOJ on the Flamenco if allowed could be decisive. Firstly the smoke it generates could make effective attacks impossible. In the event a Popper actually hits one it will likely cause terminal internal hits. However it is only effective in a stern chase. In a close in attack it is as liable to affect the Flamenco as the Poppers (though the Flamenco is more able to withstand the effects). In a frontal attack it is irrelevant.

Attack Vectors.

Stern Chase: Flamenco can out accelerate bikes and has a higher top speed. It also has a higher HC and can risk higher speed travel. This (plus FOJ) will prevent an effective stern chase.

Off-road: Flamenco HC will drop to 0 and risk damage to the under body but not tires. Popper HC also drops to 0 and it will suffer tire damage but not under body damage. This will prevent effective extended off-road engagement.

Pop-Up attack from Off-road: Whilst the bikes don't have sustainable OR capability, there is only a 7/36 chance of taking damage to a single tire per turn per 20 mph over 10 mph. With standard tires they could expect to last 20 turns and retain half their DPs at up to 30, or 10 turns at up to 50. An attack originating from off-road is therefore not excessively risky. Equally escape off-road is a credible possibility (though the Flamenco could pursue and prevent disengagement of at least 1 Popper).

Ambush: If the Poppers approached from a side road/off-ramp/culvert etc. the Flamenco could be engaged before it could take advantage of its higher performance. This would very rapidly turn into a stern chase however with the advantage switching to the Flamenco. The Poppers would need to cause significant damage with their opening salvos to offset this advantage. With three separate attacks from 2D weapons however, this could mean 9D worth of Hazards, which at highway speeds could result in control issues.

Attacks to the side of the Flamenco at 55 mph would be at -4 plus range modifiers. Even assuming the range was <4" the Poppers still need 12s to hit. By the time they have built up sufficient sustained fire the battle will have turned into a stern chase and the range will be opening up every turn (and smoke from the FOJ will be causing additional interference).

Attacks to the rear of the Flamenco at 55 mph are only at -2 plus range modifiers, meaning after sustained fire the attacks become somewhat credible.

Assuming the engagement occurred at 4" and both vehicles accelerated as much as possible, in 4 turns the the Poppers will be travelling at 75, the Flamenco at 95 and the range would be 9" (-2) and damage from the RLs is looking unlikely. 2 turns later the Popper is at top speed and the range modifier is -3 and the distance increasing by 2.5" per turn. At this point the Poppers have lost.

In order to be able to deliver several attacks the Poppers need to stay in contact, this will probably mean approach speeds in excess of the standard 55 of the Flamenco. If the Poppers arrive at 75 mph instead then they remain within 4" for 7 turns. In addition 3 turns into the fight, they could be at point blank range and +2 sustained fire to boot. The bikes should only attack when the odds are in their favour.

Frontal Assault: Ordinarily this would be the least sensible option but, since the MG is a weak weapon and this attack vector negates the FOJ, it may be more effective than a stern or side attack. The difficulty is that the approach may be so fast with a closing speed in excess of 100 mph that very little exchange of fire is possible. It makes more sense for the combatants to hold fire until point blank range (and even then the size and speed modifiers all but cancel the +4 for point blank meaning a 7 is needed). In such an exchange the Flamenco is liable to come off worst. In order to fire at the optimum time the FOJ probably won't be triggered before the Poppers are far behind.

In fact it is probably better for the Poppers to be moving at very low speed (or remain stationary) to prolong the opportunities to fire. Statistically this disadvantages the Flamenco as it can only fire 1 MG burst into front armour for every 3 RL shots it receives in return. It may increase it's chances by speeding up (as then it may build up a speed modifier), but any hazards are liable to have worse impact.

EDIT: OK even this is astonishingly unlikely. If the Flamenco accelerates then the bikes get only one credible shot at point blank range. Whilst the bikes are equally unlikely to suffer harm, but that won't win the encounter. Trading in some of the ammunition and replacing it with AP ammo might improve things, as would having some Gunner skill.

The Flamenco may be tempted to ram one or more bikes, but this would be costly. Even if confetti rules are used and considering the DMs, the Flamenco would take tens of points of damage to likely already damaged front armour. High speed collisions are a crap shoot and the Bandits win even if the Target immobilises himself. Interestingly if the Flamenco takes on 3 lb of ballast (or a FP suit for the driver) it trips the 4001 lb DM=1 level without affecting it's Acc at all. It would then perform significantly better in rams.

Once the Flamenco passes through the ambush point the Poppers can pivot and have a few last shots into his rear. There is no way they will be able to catch him and the Flamenco would be ill advised to come back and "have a go".

Of course this shows up the limitations of the Popper. Its weapons are configured for a pursuit vehicle, but it lacks the performance to be an effective pursuer. Using the basic VG1 customisation rules you could move the RL to the rear and have it as a sucker vehicle (still technically a Popper - Maybe a "Popper Flip"). Then dawdle and let your prey come to you. This is a more controllable and subtle version of the frontal assault.

For a more Pursuit oriented version I give you...

"Popper II by Swordtart:
Medium Cycle; Cycle chassis; Heavy suspension;
Small Cycle PP w/HTMs, Overdrive;
2 PR Radial tires;
Driver;
Rocket Launcher w/10xArmor Piercing (F).
46 pts. Plastic (F: 26 R: 0 L: 0 B: 20 T: 0 U: 0);
1x2 pt. Plastic Guards F; 1x2 pt. Plastic Guards B. Cost: $4,871, Wgt: 1,098, HC: 3, Top Speed: 95 (70, 115), Accel: 5 (10, 2.5).


When we built the Popper it was for a different world. We know what you needed but we gave you what you wanted. Now you are old enough to know better.

Embrace the Chaos.

Last edited by swordtart; 04-14-2019 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 04-13-2019, 06:19 PM   #356
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Almost identical to updated Popper I came up with . Only change is my one had normal PR Tires rather than Radial ones . Cheaper but with option of adding a SWC & still less than $5,000 .

In our games a HC of 2 for a Cycle isn't a problem - most established 'Bike Gang' members are reckoned to be Cyclist-2 & that gives a good chance of improved HC from the Reaction Roll .
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:34 AM   #357
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

I was envisioning investing more skill points in gunner to make up for the poor chance to hit for the RL.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:08 PM   #358
juris
 
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Location: CA
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

If you're going to upgrade the Popper:

Popper 2042 -- Medium Cycle, Heavy suspension, Medium Cycle power plant, 2 Motorcycle Heavy-Duty tires, Cycle Windshell w/6 pts extra Plastic armor, Cyclist w/BA, Rocket Launcher Front w/10 shots Armor-Piercing, Plastic Armor: F12, B10, 2 5-pt Cycle Wheelguards, Acceleration 10, Top Speed 137.5, HC 2 (3 @60mph), 1100 lbs., $4777

You only need two to take on a Flamenco (maybe add two PFEs). Stern chase is fine. You could survive a couple flaming oil patches, or wait for the oil to burn up and chase the Flamenco down - you're faster. I believe the windshell is universal and will protect the engine/RL/cyclist against the oil.

Of course you'd want to upgrade the Flamenco too: (not my design but excellent)

Flamenco 2065 -- Compact, Extra-Heavy chassis, Heavy suspension, Large power plant w/PC, High-Torque Motors, 4 Steelbelted Puncture-Resistant tires, Driver w/SWC and BA and PFE, Machine Gun Front, Flaming Oil Jet Back, Link (FOJ, MG), Plastic Armor: F44, L35, R35, B44, T12, U15, 2 8-pt Wheelguards Back, 2 8-pt Wheelhubs Front, Gear Allocation: [242 lbs. @ Accel 5/Top Speed 115], Acceleration 10 (+5 w/HTMs), Top Speed 120, HC 3, 4198 lbs., $11750

Flamenco absolutely wants to ram

Last edited by juris; 04-14-2019 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:31 PM   #359
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
If you're going to upgrade the Popper:
Whilst I don't question the improvement offered by the redesign, I wouldn't call it a Popper. Unless you are using the same plant, weapon systems and crew it is a different design in my book. Adding HTM, overdrive etc. is OK, I'd even accept PC or SC upgrades, but a different plant is a bridge too far. I would definitely allow changes to ammunition or tires (as these are consumable items). Alternate armour is also OK as in time you could easily have a redistribution purely as a result of damage sustained.

The original question I posed myself was whether any of the cheaper stock bikes were at all credible designs (and the arbitrary test was to fight them against an equivalent value of 4 wheeled stock vehicle). I chose the Popper and Flamenco pretty much at random and it was clear the Popper didn't cut it in its original configuration in any scenario I could think of as it didn't seem to have a clear design vision.

I don't think we can blame the poor relative performance on the Flamenco being a case hardened death machine, it is mediocre at most. Of course I didn't frame the fight as a bandit Flamenco chasing down a trio of Poppers, but I don't think it would have made the Popper look any less inadequate.

I'll have a rummage through the book and see if I can find a bike that is a more credible threat and once I have a winner I'll compare that against the best car I can find and see if it leads to any conclusion.
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Old 04-21-2019, 09:24 AM   #360
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Bizarrely the best budget candidate seems to be the Road Miser series.

In all configurations it is cheaper than the Popper. As it is built on a light cycle chassis and uses the same plant, it also has higher acceleration and top speed (enough to equal the Flamenco).

With the MG version it should be one range category better than the Flamenco (based on the size modifiers). It doesn't have much armour so it will need to try to optimise its lower profile. It also has a magazine equal to the Flamenco. The best bit is you can buy 3 of them and still have $1579 change.

Road Miser II doesn't bring much extra to the party as tire hits in this scenario should be hard to come by.

The Rocket Road Miser would be an interesting option. We could buy FIVE and still have change to give each rider over $200 spending money. With only one HR we would need to get close to be effective, but a hit by an HR would be unnerving for the Flamenco. Since we were forced to use a Zoom and Boom attack for the Poppers, it isn't that different and we were only getting a single effective shot in anyway (but we wouldn't get any sustained fire bonus). Five HRs vs 3 effective RLs, close call. Of course with all that armour and five opponents the Flamenco may just run out of ammunition before it can breach the armour of all the targets. Ramming them would be a double edged sword.

If we allow the standard factory options listed in VG1 we could make them all more efficient. Making the HRs armour piercing is a no-brainer and easily justified. With the MG version a SWC can be added and tracer rounds would enable the attack to start from a long way out, making a stern chase viable.

I think these are far more credible so I might actually run them to see what happens.
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