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Old 07-01-2019, 05:53 AM   #1
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Cestus + Brawling + UC

Do Cestus benefit from Brawling or UC? I can't really think of a reason not to let them (barring balance). Would that mean that a Cestus in a dirty brawl HTH would do ST+5?
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Old 07-01-2019, 09:41 AM   #2
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

It might seem to, except I think Cestus talent itself would tend to give someone ability to fight with a cestus that I'd expect wouldn't be hugely improved like that by also being a brawler. Since Cestus was designed before Brawling existed, for me it's an open question the GM needs to think about, including whether the resulting damage seems excessive or not. i.e. Should a cestus do more damage than a dagger because the user has brawling? I would tend to think not, from both a realism and balance point of view, as well as a game design one (i.e. it makes Brawling a talent that you're kind of lame if you don't take because it's so cheap and good).

There's also the question of how much damage a cestus even does outside of HTH. It has been interpreted by players as either doing ST +3, or main gauche damage (1d-1, but possible to attack twice at -3).

Brawling as written does bring up balance questions. 1 point in an IQ 7 talents allows "dirty" unarmed attacks that are 1 point shy of a dagger, as much as IQ 11 Unarmed Combat II?

Also several people seem to be interpreting it as giving +2 damage to say, gargoyle attacks. It seems like a case of giving a new large easy bonus that's not particularly counterbalanced by other things.

Last edited by Skarg; 07-01-2019 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:08 PM   #3
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Also several people seem to be interpreting it as giving +2 damage to say, gargoyle attacks. It seems like a case of giving a new large easy bonus that's not particularly counterbalanced by other things.
I guess I don't see how using the talent as-written is "interpreting" it. Why shouldn't a gargoyle character be able to use it just as a halfling character could? It's not a new bonus, it's how the talent works.

If you want to exclude gargoyles from Brawling as a matter of game balance, you're welcome to do that at your game table, of course (as all GMs are), but wouldn't that actually be a change to the talent and not a correct interpretation of the how the talent is written?
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:43 PM   #4
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

Fighting with a cestus is, by defininition, fighting armed, which places it outside the boundaries of UC (bare hands). Use Weapon Expertise to get bonuses.
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:41 PM   #5
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
I guess I don't see how using the talent as-written is "interpreting" it. Why shouldn't a gargoyle character be able to use it just as a halfling character could?
I didn't mean to suggest prohibiting Brawling for gargoyles, nor that that would be a full solution. Mainly I think Brawling should only add +1 damage to anyone's bare-hand attacks (just have "non-dirty" brawls by non-brawlers do at least -1 damage), and that also the low end of the ST/damage table ought to be tweaked down a bit (for instance, RAW ST 9 or less fighters do as much damage with one-handed clubs as they do with "real" weapons).


Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
It's not a new bonus, it's how the talent works.
I meant it is new compared to the original game, in which there was no Brawling talent, and the (ST 16-20) gargoyles could be expected to do 2d damage. Unarmed Combat II could give +2 unarmed damage, but required IQ 11 (higher than a gargoyle can get), DX 14, and 4 talent points (not like the new Brawling talent's IQ 7 and 1 talent point).

So if Brawling gives +2 damage to gargoyles, essentially now all gargoyles should probably do 2d+2 damage, a major upgrade, except the dumb ones who didn't take Brawling. That strikes me as not-well-thought-out balance drift (compare to daggers), and an over-representation of brawling and its low cost.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
If you want to exclude gargoyles from Brawling as a matter of game balance, you're welcome to do that at your game table, of course (as all GMs are), but wouldn't that actually be a change to the talent and not a correct interpretation of the how the talent is written?
I'd house rule as I mentioned above actually, but if I wanted an interpretation of the talent as written that was less of a problem, I'd say the +2 only applies to dirty brawling against people in a brawl situation where they aren't expecting you to be in dirty combat mode. So in actual deadly combat, just the +1, as that's clearly more in line with the damage from Unarmed Combat I, daggers and clubs, etc. (I agree it looks like it probably does imply you'd get a +2 in deadly combat, but I think that's problematic (as is improvised broken bottles being as deadly as daggers)).
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Old 07-01-2019, 04:54 PM   #6
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Fighting with a cestus is, by defininition, fighting armed, which places it outside the boundaries of UC (bare hands). Use Weapon Expertise to get bonuses.
This is true, isn't it?

And I'm sure there's an argument to make that Gargoyles are not 'unarmed', in fact doesn't ITL say something about being 'armed with claws'. In other words, a Gargoyle who chooses to use a cestus instead of her whopping viscous claws should drop to ST based 'bare hand' damage, plus the cestus bonus. In my head it looks pretty awkward in any case! Similarly with the Kung Fu techniques I assume lie behind UC - they're not techniques that improve claw attacks at all, so again the Character would be down to ST based damage only.

I guess you might be able to get Claw Expert and Mastery though, depending on the GM...
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Old 07-01-2019, 05:02 PM   #7
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

Yeah, it's a good question whether gargoyle fists count as weapons or not, also for purposes of whether unarmed gargoyles can Defend, for instance.

Same questions for dragon claws (who could really use some way to increase their claw damage, which is really anemic for their ST and size. (One-hex gargoyle does 2d, same as a ST 60 7-hex dragon claw? While a ST 30 4-hex dragon claw only does 2d-2?)

Also now that gargoyles come in a small PC size with ST 13 compared to the normal adult arena gargoyles which are ST 20, it seems to me there should probably be some effects of ST on gargoyle damage.

And I do actually like the idea of some fighting skills that some gargoyles (and dragons etc) could use, but I don't think one "if you don't get it, you made a mistake" 1-point IQ 7 talent for +2 is a great version of it.

Hmm, but this is really starting to become a House Rules topic.
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Old 07-01-2019, 06:36 PM   #8
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Fighting with a cestus is, by defininition, fighting armed, which places it outside the boundaries of UC (bare hands). Use Weapon Expertise to get bonuses.
I like this answer very much. It also conveniently and logically re-enforces a prejudice of mine, that TFT's rules generally don't intend you to 'stack' benefits from multiple talents unless it is specifically pointed out that you can.
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Old 07-02-2019, 12:01 AM   #9
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I like this answer very much. It also conveniently and logically re-enforces a prejudice of mine, that TFT's rules generally don't intend you to 'stack' benefits from multiple talents unless it is specifically pointed out that you can.
Yes, I tend to agree.


For whatever it's worth, I notice there was an answer to whether Unarmed Combat talent bonuses would stack with cestus damage from Metagaming's Ron Hopkins in Interplay no.5, which was it was up to the GM to decide either way but "sounds like a good idea"... though that doesn't particularly inspire confidence.
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Old 08-20-2019, 04:08 PM   #10
JustAnotherJarhead
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Default Re: Cestus + Brawling + UC

I don't think you will ever be able to "justify" stacking Unarmed Combat bonuses with a Cestus, because a Cestus is a weapon, and UC specifically says both hands must be open or available etc...

Otherwise I could more readily see a form of UC that utilized a quarter staff long before any other weapon, and you don't even see that technique as an option.

If you are gonna Cestus up, might as well strap on two of them, and put your dukes up, and get ready for some man to man display of affection.
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