Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-19-2019, 05:08 AM   #31
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
You've actually got it backwards. MMOs are characterized by weak early game that reward you with a strong end game. You have detailed reasons why TFT has a weak late game. This is because TFT is about making a character and taking them on a journey that ends in either their death or retirement. It's not about figuring out how to make them ascend to the stars as cosmically powerful aliens
I disagree with your assessment of MMOs (I find the raiding part one of the big turn offs and the part where you control what you are doing and don't need 50+ people with you much stronger and more compelling).

What TFT is or isn't about is not stated anywhere I have read. Therefore it is up to the players and GMs to make of the manuals what they will.
Tywyll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 05:15 AM   #32
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
TFT isn't really well suited to long term play with "levelling up" or mechanical character advancement. That's because advancement is via attribute increase and since there are only three attributes there's not many places to level up. Powerful characters have high scores in all three attributes and so get a bit samey.
I don't know. In my Warriors of Darok and forests of Dihad there are plenty of high level characters that feel very different (granted, that was partially because IQ left them with limited room to invest their points). But yeah, having only three stats and making it so that they govern everything is a problem.

Quote:
Legacy Edition has tried to address this by putting a cap on attribute increase and allowing increased Talents beyond the IQ limit. I'm not really a fan of that because it seems to break the simplicity of the basic game, but it's certainly one solution.
I don't mind it so much as I feel the talent system as written was a giant fail. Learning to teleport took one slot but learning Math took 2? But I use a different xp system so there is that.

Another option might have been to make it so 15 and 16 are always fails. So even someone with a 30 IQ still has a 10% chance of failure (though admittedly that seems high) and all that extra IQ is just for negating penalties or rollging vs 4/IQ and 5/IQ. I don't know...using those high difficulty rules more would have made a difference.

Quote:
I'm unlikely to be able to play a long running campaign game again like I did in the past so it probably won't be an issue for me. But if I did, I'd rather have more attributes so there are more places to put the XP points. That's what I did in my long running games of the past.
That's certainly a solution. I'm not sure how I feel about it as it really breaks the simplicity of the system, but as far as house rules go, it goes back a long way!
Tywyll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 06:36 AM   #33
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
So it occurred to me yesterday that, intentionally or not, the new XP rules for TFT create an MMO-Like End Game for TFT Characters.
Interesting ideas here! We started playing ITL the week it came out (pretty sure it was the spring or summer of 1980) -- we waited a looong time because it was announced somewhere around 1 year and a half or two years before it actually came out.

We played for over 4 years and got multiple PCs into the 40+ point ranges, with 20+ IQ wizards making magic items, putting keeps on asteroids with gate-managed air supplies, etc. We didn't get a whole lot of wishes though.

The new system opens up wishes to much more inexperienced PCs. Skargs' point about Shapeshift and its interaction with wishes is interesting as well since you can save wishes up and spend them in succession after you shift, although I wonder what would happen after a series of alternating shifts and wishes followed by a Dissolve Enchantment spell -- where do the wishes go after you return to your original form? One quick fix to that hole might be that wishes operate on your natural attributes, not your shifted attributes.

One thing that made lesser wish farming so easy for the 40-point PCs was that 2 7-hex dragons seem to be able to handle an angry lesser demon because they have a higher DX. Their DX is the same as a greater demon but the Aid spell could remedy that.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 09:45 AM   #34
JohnPaulB
 
JohnPaulB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Portland, Maine
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tywyll View Post
So it occurred to me yesterday that, intentionally or not, the new XP rules for TFT create an MMO-Like End Game for TFT Characters.

........snip.........

TFT does this with the new xp system. Characters hit a developmental wall around 38-40 stat points. They have reached their ‘level cap’ (unless GMs start giving out huge xp bonuses). Their ability to progress is now solely dependent on items and wishes.

‘High level’ characters now need to ‘grind’ greater wishes. This is difficult and dangerous (kind of like a Raid). But it results in them being able to improve stats (that are under 16) so they can continue to develop.
.......snip.........

I am definitely not a fan. The new system doesn’t actually accomplish the goal of ending stat bloat, it just pushes the means to achieve it in a different direction. I think a better means of coping with it would have been to create ‘high-level’ options where characters roll 4, 5, 6D to accomplish super cool things, then the stat bloat wouldn’t matter because there would always be more to achieve. Maybe, hopefully, one day we’ll see some optional rules for that sort of play.
Perhaps when the characters reach 40 stat points, you should do a Game Apotheosis and start playing ADVANCED TFT (AKA GURPS). It should be easy to convert as there are instructions on this somewhere. I don't believe there is any cap on Advanced TFT.

NOTE: Just as there is a shift in the actual rules and application from MELEE to the more advanced The Fantasy Trip; there is a shift in the actual rules and application from TFT to the more advanced GURPS.
__________________
- Hail Melee

Last edited by JohnPaulB; 06-19-2019 at 10:01 AM. Reason: to include shift from Melee to TFT
JohnPaulB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2019, 11:01 AM   #35
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Anyone who wants to play the new TFT with 50+ point characters is free to do so. You can do it by fiat, or you can do it by awarding tens of thousands of XP per adventure, or you can do it by house ruling a different stat progression table. All of these require mere moments to decide and write down, and the core book clearly encourages you to do what you need to do in order to have a character progression that you like.

But my advice is to not do it. My reading of the discussion of this issue on this forum is that most people pushing for more open ended stat progression either never played very much TFT before the Legacy Edition came out, or did so so long ago that the details are getting a bit fuzzy. If this is you, then I am expecting you to be back here in a month or two complaining that the game isn't very fun with such characters. Every character becomes more or less the same because no one has to make a meaningful choice regarding what they invest in. Everyone succeeds pretty much all the time at pretty much everything. And, paradoxically, your super powered characters will remain fragile because even 60 point characters are vulnerable to getting killed by dumb luck after a couple hundred turns of combat. In short, the game is designed around the 3d6 bell curve for stats, and once you get yourself well outside of that curve for all three of ST, DX and IQ the whole thing gets kind of pointless.
larsdangly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 01:06 AM   #36
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Anyone who wants to play the new TFT with 50+ point characters is free to do so. You can do it by fiat, or you can do it by awarding tens of thousands of XP per adventure, or you can do it by house ruling a different stat progression table. All of these require mere moments to decide and write down, and the core book clearly encourages you to do what you need to do in order to have a character progression that you like.

But my advice is to not do it. My reading of the discussion of this issue on this forum is that most people pushing for more open ended stat progression either never played very much TFT before the Legacy Edition came out, or did so so long ago that the details are getting a bit fuzzy. If this is you, then I am expecting you to be back here in a month or two complaining that the game isn't very fun with such characters. Every character becomes more or less the same because no one has to make a meaningful choice regarding what they invest in. Everyone succeeds pretty much all the time at pretty much everything. And, paradoxically, your super powered characters will remain fragile because even 60 point characters are vulnerable to getting killed by dumb luck after a couple hundred turns of combat. In short, the game is designed around the 3d6 bell curve for stats, and once you get yourself well outside of that curve for all three of ST, DX and IQ the whole thing gets kind of pointless.
I disagree on the fragility of 60-point characters in TFT Legacy. With the new death rules, characters below 0 can still be healed shortly after combat, which allows for healing and Regeneration. Also every 60-point PC ought to have a stack of lesser wishes they can use to immediately heal back up to full ST if they're one-shotted by a triple damage roll, since the RAW says you can buy one lesser wish after every adventure.

To cap this off, lesser wish farming is very easy for even a small number of advanced PCs (I made a thread on that -- two properly prepared 40-point wizards should be able to handle an angry lesser demon without much difficulty). If people are playing by the RAW, each 60-point PC should easily be able to replenish their stack of wishes on an as-needed basis.

This should ensure that every combat becomes just a matter of how many wishes it costs. Which, I suppose, is a good measure of challenge and a way for the GM to construct adventures through wish-accounting.

A GM who decides that NPCs ought to be wish farming too gets an interesting dilemma: whether or not to simply cancel PC wishes as they use them, one at a time. I guess a cancelled wish would be a signal to the players that this combat is a "wish-free zone", as the PCs would cancel NPC wishes as well. I dunno, maybe that would make for a good boss fight in the MMO-TFT world...
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 01:36 AM   #37
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
Perhaps when the characters reach 40 stat points, you should do a Game Apotheosis and start playing ADVANCED TFT (AKA GURPS). It should be easy to convert as there are instructions on this somewhere. I don't believe there is any cap on Advanced TFT.

NOTE: Just as there is a shift in the actual rules and application from MELEE to the more advanced The Fantasy Trip; there is a shift in the actual rules and application from TFT to the more advanced GURPS.
We played GURPS Fantasy when it first came out in '86 or so and had a lot of fun with it but when I got back into role playing in 2004/5, I decided to run something with GURPS Powers (for 4e) and I ended up having to desig all the PCs because the rules were so fiddly with all the point-accounting aspects of the game like disadvantages, formulas to extend range, area, etc. We also found that it was quite a lethal game so not only did it take a ton of work to design a PC but they tended to be short-lived.

In my opinion, that all adds up to a good, challenging, tactical wargame, but not a game well suited for playing stories of any length.

We found other game systems like Tri-Stat, PDQ, and Fate to be much better suited for playing long stories. TFT strikes me as somewhere in-between GURPS and Tri-Stat but easy to house rule to handle longer stories better.

My impression of GURPS as a college kid was very good but my impression of it as a grown-up is very negative and I wouldn't recommend GURPS to anyone. I realize that there are a lot of GURPS fans out there, particularly on this list and maybe I'm missing some fundamental understanding of the game. In my experience, however, most role players make do with what they have and seem to have played only one or two systems assuming one RPG is much like another, but there are many different takes on role playing and no system is actually universal.
zot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 03:02 AM   #38
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

"My impression of GURPS as a college kid was very good but my impression of it as a grown-up is very negative and I wouldn't recommend GURPS to anyone. I realize that there are a lot of GURPS fans out there, particularly on this list and maybe I'm missing some fundamental understanding of the game. In my experience, however, most role players make do with what they have and seem to have played only one or two systems assuming one RPG is much like another, but there are many different takes on role playing and no system is actually universal."

I'm not a fan of complex systems with LOTS of rules such as GURPS. Having watched many groups play GURPS, Rolemaster, D&D 4th edition, Dragonquest and other such systems, the one common feature I notice is the very slow pace of play at the table especially when there is some sort of action, but also generally. I've no interest in stultifyingly slow play; I like my games to have a sense of action and tension.

I guess it would be possible to play these games with better pacing but you could only do that by ignoring most of the rules. So why bother in the first place.
Chris Rice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 03:26 AM   #39
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Anyone who wants to play the new TFT with 50+ point characters is free to do so. You can do it by fiat, or you can do it by awarding tens of thousands of XP per adventure, or you can do it by house ruling a different stat progression table. All of these require mere moments to decide and write down, and the core book clearly encourages you to do what you need to do in order to have a character progression that you like.
None of that really has anything to do with my OP.

I'm talking about what the RAW allows and encourages. You may not like the conclusion, but it is there for players to find and use, or for GMs to use as justification for NPCs. The new rule changes have consequences and this is one of them.
Tywyll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2019, 03:30 AM   #40
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: The (Unintentional?) MMO End Game of TFT

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
Interesting ideas here! We started playing ITL the week it came out (pretty sure it was the spring or summer of 1980) -- we waited a looong time because it was announced somewhere around 1 year and a half or two years before it actually came out.

We played for over 4 years and got multiple PCs into the 40+ point ranges, with 20+ IQ wizards making magic items, putting keeps on asteroids with gate-managed air supplies, etc. We didn't get a whole lot of wishes though.

The new system opens up wishes to much more inexperienced PCs. Skargs' point about Shapeshift and its interaction with wishes is interesting as well since you can save wishes up and spend them in succession after you shift, although I wonder what would happen after a series of alternating shifts and wishes followed by a Dissolve Enchantment spell -- where do the wishes go after you return to your original form? One quick fix to that hole might be that wishes operate on your natural attributes, not your shifted attributes.

One thing that made lesser wish farming so easy for the 40-point PCs was that 2 7-hex dragons seem to be able to handle an angry lesser demon because they have a higher DX. Their DX is the same as a greater demon but the Aid spell could remedy that.
That sounds really interesting! I love the 'wizards on asteroids' for creativity!

I don't think Dissolve enchantment would have any impact on a Wish that has already been made, any more than it would heal damage from a fire ball. The wishes change has been made, it doesn't linger after that. YMMV and all that.

And thank you for pointing out the kinds of games the old system allowed. People are acting like making magic items can't be done or some nonsense when its right there in the book!!!
Tywyll is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.