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Old 06-16-2019, 07:30 AM   #11
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I think this is a fairly reasonable realism argument, and as kjamma4 wrote, there is an interesting/fun aspect to having more sequence effects of adjDX modifiers.

Usually I choose in favor of realism and interesting/fun things, and am happy to do more work to get those things.

However in this case there really is a big impact on potential play complexity, which increases very steeply with the number of figures (especially with ranged attacks, aimed shots, etc) in a combat (and I like running large combats). If everyone acts on their base adjDX, it's very clear what order everyone goes in: at their base adjDX. But if adjDX affects turn sequence, then the number of points at which each figure might act can be multiplied to the point even I can't always keep track of it, even using the house rules I mentioned above.

What I do to mitigate it though is as the GM, go through in order of base adjDX asking who wants to do something. It is then the responsibility of the players to intervene if they can actually go sooner due to some DX bonus. Figures act if they have the highest adjDX of the figures who have announced they want to act at that point. If we get down to adjDX 11 and someone realizes they could have acted at adjDX 14 if they stabbed someone on the ground, they can act before the other adjDX 11's, but not before people whose actions we've already resolved.
Skarg is right. It is fun to go before someone else because you got that side-attack or some other special thing. But it does make it more complex with multiple combatants. The best way to go is to either set it up and only count permanent bonuses, the adjDX you write down on the card, like armor, disadvantages, magic and fine items and wounds lower than 4 health, and special attack moves like two weapon fighting that will be used again and again.

Or you count it all, according to RAW, and only make an exception for aiming that could change radically from the point of your attack declaration to your turn to act. As well as withing your turn to attack; if you have to roll to miss, which probably is the game rule reason to except range penalties. Otherwise, at which adjDX would you act if you have to roll to miss someone, close by without range penalties, then roll to hit with some penalties, and if you miss some other character even further away could be the target. A huge difference if you are throwing your weapon. Another reason could be the double shot or faster reloads with a crossbow. IF you separated the two attacks based on range, you might have two bowshots if you aim at one guy, but not if you aim at that guy and another one. So I get that ranged weapons are an exception.

And again, Skargs way of handling it, where he just declare the next guy in initiative order, and if anyone can break in before due to bonuses or penalties they go first. And if someone misses their adjDX turn, they can go at a later time but no retroactive changes. It takes time to have a proper adjDX countdown otherwise. And with many enemies, a GM can get bogged down.

And realistically speaking an attack isn't one swing, it is how fast you can bring an attack to bear, often one or more quick combos or a well-timed riposte to the enemy's initial combo to try to open your defense up. So adjDX isn't as much speed as it is skill. Otherwise, movement would be based on DX (like in GURPS) and initiative would be based on DX. But yes, high skill means you aim faster, opens up an enemy's defenses for a real strike faster, etc. And if someone is lying down, their defenses are already compromised so you can go for the real attack immediately and hence score a hit faster.

And we also have the all-around perception issues, you have to spend time looking around you, weigh your tactical options, look for good foot placement, maybe duck thrown weapons, etc. And all those factors also slows you down in a grand melee, compared to a one on one duel. And that is also related to skill and experience, more than pure speed. So I have no problem with people realistically attacking in order of skill. Highest skilled person gets the chance to finish the fight first, and then his less experienced opponents get their chance.

But as always, the rule of fun rules!
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Old 06-16-2019, 11:17 AM   #12
RobW
 
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Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

Well written response, and yes rule of fun is determining!

My take is to encourage giving the RAW a good few outings on this before moving to more strict order. The groups Iíve been in have always found it fun and never noticed any problems.

Basically after movement it is pretty clear what the order of actions will be. the players look after themselves. It keeps our attention on whatís happening and the dynamics of the battle. We players are only too happy to note our DX has increased due to facing bonus. And when someone is knocked down it can be like a shark frenzy. If sometimes someone does something out of order, itís not a disaster. We basically carry on.

Attacking fallen figures is for us by far the most common event within the action phase to change DX order, and that is so significant it isnít hard to remember.

The other thing is that TFT combat often has little knots of combatants. These three over here, the archer in the back dealing with the wolf, etc. And within those knots you can see the facing etc going on and not too hard to keep relative order straightit, at least in our battles (4 a side pretty typical).

So yes Iíd encourage RAW here, itís never been a problem for us (of course ymmv, for many reasons), and after all these years, I still find it so satisfying to get in a big attack before I was ďsupposed toĒ because I managed to get in to the side!
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:31 AM   #13
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I think there is a 'realism' case for counting many adjDX modifiers as influencing to-hit but not order, but it is worth pointing out that you are significantly 'nerfing' DX bonuses if you do that, and this devalues play decisions and situations and increases the value of DX as a 'god stat'. I.e., you can't use situational modifiers to seize action initiative - only your base adjDX score sets action order. Having action order initiative is often decisive, so the suggested house rule is a significant change in power balance.
To be honest, I feel like all the DX adjustments for to-hit justify a change in action order. We're talking about really small time frames here, we're to assume that all the actions in a turn are happening relatively simultaneously within a single 5 second window (I know that nothing happens truly simultaneously but that's abstraction). I don't find it unrealistic that a figure throwing a knife from far away might hesitate to do so more than a figure simply thrusting with a knife, because he is somewhat less confident in his maneuver or because he needs a moment to make subconscious trajectory calculations. I don't find it worth it to make any house rules about it.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:39 AM   #14
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

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Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
I don't find it unrealistic that a figure throwing a knife from far away might hesitate to do so more than a figure simply thrusting with a knife, because he is somewhat less confident in his maneuver or because he needs a moment to make subconscious trajectory calculations.
I was re-thinking about this and my mind went back to a scene about a long range arrow shot.

The firer looked at the slowly receding target, looked at a flapping banner (to gauge wind direction & speed) and then fired the arrow. This took less than 5 seconds but it presumably took a bit longer than if he was firing at someone 3 yards away.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:39 AM   #15
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

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Originally Posted by Shoug View Post
To be honest, I feel like all the DX adjustments for to-hit justify a change in action order. We're talking about really small time frames here, we're to assume that all the actions in a turn are happening relatively simultaneously within a single 5 second window (I know that nothing happens truly simultaneously but that's abstraction). I don't find it unrealistic that a figure throwing a knife from far away might hesitate to do so more than a figure simply thrusting with a knife, because he is somewhat less confident in his maneuver or because he needs a moment to make subconscious trajectory calculations. I don't find it worth it to make any house rules about it.
Whatever is or isn't the most realistic thing, I believe it is best game design to always base relative order on fully adjDX rather than trying to track separately your 'order' adjDX and your 'to hit' adjDX.
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:20 PM   #16
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Whatever is or isn't the most realistic thing, I believe it is best game design to always base relative order on fully adjDX rather than trying to track separately your 'order' adjDX and your 'to hit' adjDX.
I agree, my argument is that making this decision does not have to be at the expense of realism or otherwise depend on any more suspension of disbelief.
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Old 06-19-2019, 12:06 PM   #17
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

What about this scenario?
A (AdjDX 12) and B (AdjDX 11) are attacking C (AdjDX 12) and D (AdjDX 12) all are engaged. A can hit C, B can hit C or D, C can hit A or B, D can hit B. AB have initiative so A goes first.


A gets lucky and gets 8 hits on C, knocking him down. Normally, D would go next but B has an opportunity to attack C at +4 or AdjDX 15. IF he takes it, then his attack is next. If he chooses to attack D then he has to wait until D makes his attack.


Correct, is it not?


My play has always been that adjustments for facing always affect speed of attack because it incorporates the idea that facing allows for an quicker hit within the 5 second Turn.



From the beginning we house ruled that Missile Weapons DID get the adjustments for facing - based on the above thinking. (But those adjustments did not affect Bow speed. Raising AdjDX above the minimum did NOT give you two shots per Turn, that depended only on Base Dx and Armor + magic adjustments).
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Old 06-19-2019, 06:51 PM   #18
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

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Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
... A gets lucky and gets 8 hits on C, knocking him down. Normally, D would go next but B has an opportunity to attack C at +4 or AdjDX 15. IF he takes it, then his attack is next. If he chooses to attack D then he has to wait until D makes his attack.
Yes, RAW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
From the beginning we house ruled that Missile Weapons DID get the adjustments for facing - based on the above thinking.
We never gave facing adjustments to any ranged attacks. If they did, then RAW they would affect attack order, which seems to me clearly wrong for ranged attacks.

(e.g. Several ranged-weapon opponents face each other - and they can shoot sooner if they choose to shoot at foes who are facing sideways?)
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Old 06-20-2019, 08:40 PM   #19
Original_Carl
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
I'd be happy if range penalties did slow you down, that would make perfect sense IMO. Shooting at a distant target, you will be naturally slower. Deliberately speeding up will make you even more inaccurate.
Also this would further simplify the effects of applying a DX mod by removing a conditional exception.

I like fewer rules. 🤓
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:33 AM   #20
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
We never gave facing adjustments to any ranged attacks. If they did, then RAW they would affect attack order, which seems to me clearly wrong for ranged attacks.

(e.g. Several ranged-weapon opponents face each other - and they can shoot sooner if they choose to shoot at foes who are facing sideways?)
Missile weapons are clearly in the rules that the do not get facing adjustments and that their range adjustment does not affect order. Missile weapons are the exception on both points. No other place does it mention either of these.

As far as thrown weapons, we have had this discussion before. The rules states these are the same as melee weapons with the only exception being the thrown ranged modifier. So, I give them facing bonuses. And facing bonuses affect order of attack with thrown for the same reason it affects it with melee. Easier to spot an opening. But as before, the thrown weapons are debatable as it is not specifically spelled out.
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