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Old 06-14-2019, 07:57 AM   #1
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

So I played my first three games yesterday. They were all against a single player - the first was one character v. one character, then two v two, and finally three v. three.

Obviously our tactics were not the best but both of us enjoyed the game and look forward to playing again.

A situation came up where two characters on one side were fighting one character on the other side. (A1 = prone, A2 = his ally, B = their enemy)

B was attacking A1 and A2 was attacking B.

B's adjDX was lower than A2's not counting the prone bonus but higher with the bonus.

Admittedly, I may have missed this but does B get to attack A1 prior to A2's attack? I completely understand and agree that B hitting A1 should be easier due to the prone status but I don't think that would allow him to strike any faster because of this?

Clearly I need some guidance!!! Thanks.
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:30 AM   #2
Tywyll
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

I don't know if its RAW but I've always interpreted those +Dx to be mearly bonuses to hit...otherwise Balanced Fine Weapons and side attacks improve your speed, which I'm pretty sure isn't the intention.
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Old 06-14-2019, 08:30 AM   #3
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

By the rules as written, yes, almost all DX adjustments do affect the order in which figures' actions occur. The main exception are DX adjustments due to range to target.

However, a number of us use house rules that add exceptions, both for the sort of intuitive reasoning you mention (i.e. many DX adjustments seem like they would affect the difficulty of hitting but not really the speed), and also because it can greatly simplify the consideration of who gets to act next (since each figure may have many different potential adjDX points at which they could act, all of which for all characters need to be compared to really grasp the sequence of play, which can get quite complicated in combat with many figures).

The groups I played with tended to only have DX modifiers which affect the figure for most/all purposes affect their speed (so armor, encumbrance, injury, darkness, bad footing, Aid spell) but not the penalties/bonuses which are about how you choose to attack (so not target facing/posture, height advantage, range, cover/concealment, or optional hit location). (But even though we liked that logic and thought it was a useful guideline, it wasn't exactly that simple or consistent, as we DID have some things about the type of attack affect speed (weapon quality/enchantment, talents, sweeping blows).

But there are quite a few modifiers to consider and some of them I can see arguments for having them affect timing or not (facing/posture being one of them).

Most important is to try to agree on a list beforehand, so it's not inconsistently applied and/or surprising some players who were expecting it to work differently.

Last edited by Skarg; 06-14-2019 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 06-14-2019, 09:20 AM   #4
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

Perfect. I felt it was completely analogous to the handling of range in regards to missile weapons.

New house rule!!!

Thanks.
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:24 AM   #5
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

I think there is a 'realism' case for counting many adjDX modifiers as influencing to-hit but not order, but it is worth pointing out that you are significantly 'nerfing' DX bonuses if you do that, and this devalues play decisions and situations and increases the value of DX as a 'god stat'. I.e., you can't use situational modifiers to seize action initiative - only your base adjDX score sets action order. Having action order initiative is often decisive, so the suggested house rule is a significant change in power balance.
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:39 AM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I think there is a 'realism' case for counting many adjDX modifiers as influencing to-hit but not order, but it is worth pointing out that you are significantly 'nerfing' DX bonuses if you do that, and this devalues play decisions and situations and increases the value of DX as a 'god stat'. I.e., you can't use situational modifiers to seize action initiative - only your base adjDX score sets action order. Having action order initiative is often decisive, so the suggested house rule is a significant change in power balance.
As I wrote above, most of the situational modifiers (bad footing, darkness, injuries) did affect sequence the way we played it, because they affected the whole figure for most/all purposes and attacks.

However you are right about the "balance" aspect in that if you don't have optional hit location affect sequence (as we did not) then such uses of high DX are less powerful (because they slow down your attack) and also it adds a consideration of which to use even for figures with crazy-high DX (i.e. they might not go for a head shot because they don't want anyone to attack them before they get their attack off).

Yet this is one of the few cases where I find the simplicity/speed important (though probably because I tend to like large battles, and the complexity of multiple adjDX-points each figure could act is multiplied by the number of figures and targets).
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Old 06-14-2019, 10:41 AM   #7
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I think there is a 'realism' case for counting many adjDX modifiers as influencing to-hit but not order, but it is worth pointing out that you are significantly 'nerfing' DX bonuses if you do that, and this devalues play decisions and situations and increases the value of DX as a 'god stat'. I.e., you can't use situational modifiers to seize action initiative - only your base adjDX score sets action order. Having action order initiative is often decisive, so the suggested house rule is a significant change in power balance.
My experience with the game is so limited that between realism and play balance, I can only go with realism. Once I get more experience, my viewpoint will be broadened.

However, from a fun viewpoint, me being able to hit a prone figure in front of an enemy with a higher adjDX but for the bonus I got due to my target being prone failed. And if it fails when I'm the beneficiary of the RAW, at this point realism plus fun prevails.

Thanks for the input however - as a new player I enjoy the point counterpoint.
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Old 06-15-2019, 06:39 AM   #8
RobW
 
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

We're strictly RAW on this, adjDX applies to order of action and prob of success (other than range penalties).

For us, this is for the "fun" argument, it means positioning is really important.

But if you want a realism argument, it is psychological law that more difficult actions take longer to plan and are slower to execute. Fitts Law is an example. Trying to hit a small target is both harder to do and slower to execute than trying to hit a large one. I'd be happy if range penalties did slow you down, that would make perfect sense IMO. Shooting at a distant target, you will be naturally slower. Deliberately speeding up will make you even more inaccurate.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:39 PM   #9
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

I can see that too. A tempting prone target presents itself and you get so excited to hit it that you throw your normal caution to the wind and instead of proceeding normally, you accelerate in for the kill.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:49 PM   #10
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Attacking a prone figure - adjDX for both time of attack and to hit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobW View Post
... But if you want a realism argument, it is psychological law that more difficult actions take longer to plan and are slower to execute. Fitts Law is an example. Trying to hit a small target is both harder to do and slower to execute than trying to hit a large one. I'd be happy if range penalties did slow you down, that would make perfect sense IMO. Shooting at a distant target, you will be naturally slower. Deliberately speeding up will make you even more inaccurate.
I think this is a fairly reasonable realism argument, and as kjamma4 wrote, there is an interesting/fun aspect to having more sequence effects of adjDX modifiers.

Usually I choose in favor of realism and interesting/fun things, and am happy to do more work to get those things.

However in this case there really is a big impact on potential play complexity, which increases very steeply with the number of figures (especially with ranged attacks, aimed shots, etc) in a combat (and I like running large combats). If everyone acts on their base adjDX, it's very clear what order everyone goes in: at their base adjDX. But if adjDX affects turn sequence, then the number of points at which each figure might act can be multiplied to the point even I can't always keep track of it, even using the house rules I mentioned above.

What I do to mitigate it though is as the GM, go through in order of base adjDX asking who wants to do something. It is then the responsibility of the players to intervene if they can actually go sooner due to some DX bonus. Figures act if they have the highest adjDX of the figures who have announced they want to act at that point. If we get down to adjDX 11 and someone realizes they could have acted at adjDX 14 if they stabbed someone on the ground, they can act before the other adjDX 11's, but not before people whose actions we've already resolved.
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