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Old 05-18-2019, 12:42 PM   #1
rockwoofstone
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Default Changing Option to Defend

I've searched for an answer to this, but haven't come across anything which explains it, so apologies if I've missed an existing thread.

Moves:
Player 1 moves <1/2 MA, and chooses the option to attack player 2 (with whom he is now engaged).
Player 3 moves in and also engages player 1.

We now move on to the rest of the options:
Player 3 has highest DX, so gets to go first.
Player 3 attacks player 1. Player 1 was going to attack, but now regrets that, and wants to defend instead, but it's currently player 3 who us completing their option.

Now, this is where my question comes in.
The rules say that a when it comes to a player to take the rest of their option, they can change their mind within the restriction of options they are still able to complete.
However, in this instance, player 1 isn't having their option at this point in time; it is player 3 who is having their option.
So, can player 1 change their option, even though it is player 3 who is completing his option, or is he only able to do that once he get to completing his option (and therefore cannot defend against player 3)?
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Old 05-18-2019, 01:03 PM   #2
RobW
 
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: Changing Option to Defend

There are two aspects to your very reasonable question.

One is about adjDX. Can a low DX fighter defend against a high DX one? The answer to this is yes. Assuming they've met the movement requirements, a low DX figure can change their option to include Defending, e.g. from option (j) Shift and Attack, to option (k) Shift and Defend.

The second aspect to this question is that it sounds like Player 1 starts the turn disengaged and moves 1/2 their MA. The RAW seem to be very clear that unless you are engaged at the time of your figure's movement, you can't choose the Defend option. That is, there is no option for disengaged figures, move and defend.

There has been no official clarification on this, but many people here (including me) think this can only be a mistake in the rules.

Why a mistake? Well for one thing, a figure can't normally defend against a jab, as it will not have been engaged at the time of its movement.

Last edited by RobW; 05-18-2019 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:00 PM   #3
kommisar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Changing Option to Defend

I asked a similar question several months back. See here:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=162396


The question for me is whether to read the rule "The options available to a figure depend on whether it is engaged disengaged, or in HTH combat at the moment its turn to move comes" (Melee p. 6) strictly or not. A strict reading would only allow you to choose among the disengaged options when you change options, if you were disengaged when you chose your movement option and despite being engaged later in the turn. I have been flip flopping on whether to allow a choice across options that fall into different engagement categories.
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Last edited by kommisar; 05-18-2019 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:03 PM   #4
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Changing Option to Defend

I've always allowed a figure to choose to defend against a Melee attack whether or not they started out engaged when they moved, as long as:

1) they've not moved over half MA, and
2) they've not already carried out another action

I believe this is in the spirit of the rules, if not the letter.

I've also always allowed Defence against a spear jab.
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:10 PM   #5
Sinanju
 
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Default Re: Changing Option to Defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
I've always allowed a figure to choose to defend against a Melee attack whether or not they started out engaged when they moved, as long as:

1) they've not moved over half MA, and
2) they've not already carried out another action

I believe this is in the spirit of the rules, if not the letter.

I've also always allowed Defence against a spear jab.
I agree. He moved while not engaged. Then someone ran up and engaged him. So he can choose from the options for an engaged figure--including Defend.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:59 PM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Changing Option to Defend

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwoofstone View Post
I've searched for an answer to this, but haven't come across anything which explains it, so apologies if I've missed an existing thread.

Moves:
Player 1 moves <1/2 MA, and chooses the option to attack player 2 (with whom he is now engaged).
Player 3 moves in and also engages player 1.

We now move on to the rest of the options:
Player 3 has highest DX, so gets to go first.
Player 3 attacks player 1. Player 1 was going to attack, but now regrets that, and wants to defend instead, but it's currently player 3 who us completing their option.

Now, this is where my question comes in.
The rules say that a when it comes to a player to take the rest of their option, they can change their mind within the restriction of options they are still able to complete.
However, in this instance, player 1 isn't having their option at this point in time; it is player 3 who is having their option.
So, can player 1 change their option, even though it is player 3 who is completing his option, or is he only able to do that once he get to completing his option (and therefore cannot defend against player 3)?
Yes, player 1 can Defend as a response to the changing circumstance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RobW View Post
Well for one thing, a figure can't normally defend against a jab, as it will not have been engaged at the time of its movement.
I disagree. A figure can Defend if they moved 1/2 MA or less, and it applies against 2-hex jabs, and so they can do so as a reaction to that happening if they have not used their action yet.

The original ~1980 rules in Wizard and Advanced Melee made this very specifically clear. Unfortunately those lines were trimmed out in the Legacy edition.

Last edited by Skarg; 05-18-2019 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:23 AM   #7
rockwoofstone
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Default Re: Changing Option to Defend

Thanks everybody. It seems the general consensus is that if the situation changes, the options available should change; i.e. defend becomes a viable option, so long as you still qualify (haven't moved too far; haven't done something else already); this might not be exactly RAW, but is the spirit of the rules.

As that's how we were already playing it, we can carry on as we were. Thanks again!
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