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Old 07-30-2019, 04:53 PM   #1
Original_Carl
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Summoned Creatures and Actions

According to ITL, a summoned creature can't attack on the round it's brought into being (same with illusions).

It seems a little unfair to have the Wizard summon a Myrmidon (or Wolf or whatever) for 2 ST, and then have to wait and pay another 1 ST on the next round to actually use it. Contrast this to Fire (also a Creation spell) that does damage immediately to anyone in the hex where it's brought into being.

Maybe this would make wizards/summon spells/illusions too powerful? I'm still super-new to the game, and am not seeing a game-breaker here, but stuff like this exists for a reason and I'm hoping I can read about that here.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:48 PM   #2
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

Both can engage on the turn they are created/summoned. Which allows them to block access to the wizard.
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:19 PM   #3
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

Among the wizardly societies I've created is one specializing in summoning and who have access to a secret skill that allows the conjured beings of those who know it to act (but not to move) at the very end of the round on which they were created, at -4DX.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:20 AM   #4
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

It would both be overpowering compared to the abilities of fighters, and also create situations where some fighters cannot do anything to react before they'd be getting attacked and possibly killed, especially since the creations can appear in any hex within a 7-megahex area, with any facing.

Suppose you were a fighter and were trying to close in on a wizard, when suddenly a magic warrior or bear or dragon appeared right behind you! This can still happen, and you're engaged by it and will probably have to fight it next turn.

But if it could ALSO attack you on that same turn... yo ho ho, it's a ST 15 DX 9 myrmidon who gets a +4 DX for attacking you from behind - before you can do anything, it gets to roll a 13 or less to chop you in the back for 3d damage.

Etc.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:28 AM   #5
zot
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helborn View Post
Both can engage on the turn they are created/summoned. Which allows them to block access to the wizard.
They definitely engage at the start of the next turn but it's not clear to me that they engage on the turn they're summoned, since they can't attack. Do the rules mention this case?

Personally, if a wizard summons a creature next to an archer, I'd allow the archer to fire that turn and also the next turn, since there's no threat to the archer on the turn of summoning.
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:50 PM   #6
xane
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
Personally, if a wizard summons a creature next to an archer, I'd allow the archer to fire that turn and also the next turn, since there's no threat to the archer on the turn of summoning.
Doesn't option (l) Last Shot Missile Attack already allow this?
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:55 PM   #7
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
It would both be overpowering compared to the abilities of fighters, and also create situations where some fighters cannot do anything to react before they'd be getting attacked and possibly killed, especially since the creations can appear in any hex within a 7-megahex area, with any facing.
That is a good point, but consider other spells that totally hose their victims, such as Freeze or Sleep. No saving roll; if the wizard succeeds, the target figure suffers the effect of the spell, and they are dangerous, indeed. At least with a summoned being attacking on the round it is conjured, it has to make a second to-hit roll. Granted, Freeze and Sleep are thrown spells, but thrown spell range is not usually that different from creation spell range.
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:30 PM   #8
zot
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
They definitely engage at the start of the next turn but it's not clear to me that they engage on the turn they're summoned, since they can't attack. Do the rules mention this case?

Personally, if a wizard summons a creature next to an archer, I'd allow the archer to fire that turn and also the next turn, since there's no threat to the archer on the turn of summoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xane View Post
Doesn't option (l) Last Shot Missile Attack already allow this?
That is the right rule but whether the archer gets one or two shots depends on whether a summoned creature can engage on the turn it's summoned (and on the DX of the wizard and the archer, of course).

Suppose an adj DX 16 wizard summons a wolf next to an adj DX 15 archer.
  • If the wolf engages the archer on that turn, the archer can only shoot one arrow.
  • If the wolf cannot engage until the next turn (when it is able to act), the archer can shoot two arrows, one on the turn of summoning and one on the next turn.
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:19 PM   #9
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
That is a good point, but consider other spells that totally hose their victims, such as Freeze or Sleep. No saving roll; if the wizard succeeds, the target figure suffers the effect of the spell, and they are dangerous, indeed. At least with a summoned being attacking on the round it is conjured, it has to make a second to-hit roll. Granted, Freeze and Sleep are thrown spells, but thrown spell range is not usually that different from creation spell range.
It seems to me that Thrown spell range is significantly different from Creation spell range.

Creation spells reach up to 5 hexes away (depending on where the megahex grid lies) for no penalty to DX.

Thrown spells are -1 per hex distant.

Thrown spells such as Freeze and Sleep instantly take down a fighter for at least a while, but they have their one effect and then are done.

Creation spells bring an entire new combatant into play - they don't just get one attack and then are gone. Summoning combatants is one of the most powerful and useful types of spells - they don't need another ability to be able to make instant backstab attacks. Having a foe appear is already quite enough.

In the case of Illusions, it would tend to avoid one of that spell's few weaknesses - the opportunity to disbelieve.

It also introduces a funky technical question about when created figures act if their DX is higher than the spell-caster... do they then miss their action, or act immediately. I call it funky because it means there would be odd gamey effects either way you do it. e.g. If you rule that they lose their action, then it's better to summon a lower-DX creature so they don't lose their action, meaning slower creatures get their first action sooner, which is a backwards gamey side-effect. If you rule that they don't lose their action, then they act at the same adjDX as the caster, giving almost zero chance for foes to react or disbelieve them before they attack, but there would be a chance if the caster were faster - again, a weird gamey backwards effect.

It wouldn't ruin the game to allow creations to act immediately, but it seems to me like an unneeded/unwanted extra ability to already powerful spells.
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Old 08-01-2019, 01:31 AM   #10
xane
 
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Default Re: Summoned Creatures and Actions

Quote:
Originally Posted by zot View Post
TSuppose an adj DX 16 wizard summons a wolf next to an adj DX 15 archer.
  • If the wolf engages the archer on that turn, the archer can only shoot one arrow.
  • If the wolf cannot engage until the next turn (when it is able to act), the archer can shoot two arrows, one on the turn of summoning and one on the next turn.
Engage is not really an action, what matters is if the archer is engaged by the wolf by virtue of being in one of the wolf's front hexes, instantly the wolf appears the archer is now "engaged" and can now only take actions for an engaged figure, one of those is (l), but they cannot do that the next turn.
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