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Old 02-16-2018, 09:54 AM   #41
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
Because Mana is pure dump stat to non-wizards. Utterly worthless.
But it solves the most common complaint - the Conan the Wizard problem. And it doesn't *cost* the other character archetypes anything.

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Health, however, solves not just the Conan the Wizard issue, but also the scrawny guy who can drink Conan under the table but can't even pick up his sword.

Strong and Healthy are not synonyms, but TFT had them functionally so.

ST should stay HP.
HT takes fatigue use, not HP use. It also takes the resistance rolls.
The problem, though is that you can make the same argument about all 3 TFT attributes - ST includes upper and lower body, strength, health, pain resistance, magical power, fatigue, etc. DX includes manual dexterity, agility, spellcasting facility and hand/eye coordination. IQ includes perception, intelligence, willpower, education, memory and breadth of knowledge.

Obviously, expanding the 3 TFT attributes to 6 or more attributes would fundamentally alter the game. It might still be fun to play, but it wouldn't be TFT.

You could probably add one more attribute without damaging TFT. BUT...you need to be careful about nerfing character archetypes when you do so. That is one of my problems with a HT attribute - assuming it's also used for hit points rather than ST. And I think it dubious to NOT base hit points on health, rather than ability to lift weights.

With only 8 points to add, players would find it much harder to build a decent beginning fighter. And I think one of TFT's strengths is that beginning characters are viable far more than in games like D&D.

So my question is - is HT the most *important* stat to add? If so, why? Personally, I'd rather add a Perception attribute or split DX into manual dexterity and agility. Of, for a modern/sci-fi campaign, perhaps an Education attribute.

At the end of the day, certain compromises will be required if you're gonna have three (or four) attributes.
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Old 02-16-2018, 12:26 PM   #42
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Maybe because that's what GURPS did?
Probably, but the real issue is that I think GURPS did that because of all the commotion over doing so with TFT!

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Talent points aren't attributes but they're currently determined by IQ, and create a need for high IQ. In house rules where you can use experience to get talents above IQ instead of increasing IQ, it can tend to effectively counter IQ bloat, which to me is the main point, whether or not one considers it an attribute. They can also reduce DX bloat or even ST bloat, if there are talents which can improve things you'd otherwise have to buy up DX or ST for (e.g. to overcome armor DX penalties with great ST or higher DX - if there were talents that do that that cost less than great ST/DX, characters can get those instead of having extreme attributes).
But you ignored my main point -- which is you can solve the problem simply by saying that a character can have 2xIQ or 3xIQ talent/spell "slots" instead of creating an entirely new "attribute" to keep track of, and thus simultaneously eliminate the need to plus up IQ to 25+ point levels. If at IQ level 8, I can have 16 points of talents or spells, I don't have nearly as much need to plus up IQ quite as rapidly just for that purpose, and instead can do so simply to acquire the IQ necessary to learn a new talent, spell or language without having to sweat the slots nearly as much.

Regarding Mana -- again, it seems to me that it would be foolish to treat it as a separate attribute. Simply give the Wizard a number of Mana points equal to IQ (or IQ x2, or whatever) which he then uses INSTEAD of ST points to cast spells. No longer does he need to have muscles in his earlobes in order to cast spells... In fact, if you wanted to further differentiate Wizards from the common run of people, simply state that common folk have Mana equal to IQ/2, while Wizards have Mana equal to IQ x 2! Nobody needs to have a "dump stat" then (which doesn't make any sense at all, in TFT, by the way -- you either put points into a stat or you don't; that's your only two choices. Wasting points on a stat you can't use is the height of stupidity.). Mana is just another aspect of IQ.

Last edited by JLV; 02-16-2018 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 02-16-2018, 01:58 PM   #43
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post

Obviously, expanding the 3 TFT attributes to 6 or more attributes would fundamentally alter the game. It might still be fun to play, but it wouldn't be TFT.

You could probably add one more attribute without damaging TFT....

With only 8 points to add, players would find it much harder to build a decent beginning fighter. And I think one of TFT's strengths is that beginning characters are viable far more than in games like D&D.

.
No, I don't see that expanding Attributes to 6 fundamentally alters the game at all as you're only dividing the existing functions of a single attribute into two.

It's not really necessary if you're playing just Melee/Wizard as one-off games but with TFT as an ongoing campaign game it has many advantages. For a start it allows a lot more variety in creating beginning characters; instead of 8 points to add to 3 attributes you now have 16 points to divide between 6 attributes.

Wizards are less inclined to assign points to ST as they need HT/CON to power spells. They are also less inclined to assign points to Agility as they cast Spells with Dexterity. Fighters are less likely to assign points to IQ as they need simpler Talents. They may also assign less to KN (Knowledge - the Talent point aspect of IQ) as they may only need a few combat talents. Other characters have more freedom to mix and match. I only ever played TFT this way and would never consider using only 3 attributes for campaign play.
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:17 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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I only ever played TFT this way and would never consider using only 3 attributes for campaign play.
Sad to say then, but you've never played TFT. I would think some experience playing TFT as-is would be a better basis for arguing for new rules than no experience whatsoever in playing actual TFT.

(I say this with absolutely no intention to be insulting or sound snarky -- I'm simply stating a fact. Likewise, never having worked on a jet engine, I don't think I'd have much basis for urging a "better" way to build one...)
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:28 PM   #45
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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No, I don't see that expanding Attributes to 6 fundamentally alters the game at all as you're only dividing the existing functions of a single attribute into two.
...
I only ever played TFT this way and would never consider using only 3 attributes for campaign play.
Oh, I imagine such a game could be very fun to play. But it ainít TFT - or at least what I consider to be TFT. And what I consider most TFT players to be TFT. At best, itís a lineal descendant of TFT, not unlike GURPS.

I also think it highly unlikely that the new version of TFT will have 6+ attributes.
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:35 PM   #46
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Sad to say then, but you've never played TFT. I would think some experience playing TFT as-is would be a better basis for arguing for new rules than no experience whatsoever in playing actual TFT.

(I say this with absolutely no intention to be insulting or sound snarky -- I'm simply stating a fact. Likewise, never having worked on a jet engine, I don't think I'd have much basis for urging a "better" way to build one...)
I donít think youíre being snarky. I think itís a valid point to note that itís hard to credibly critique a game you havenít played. I do, however, commend Chris for being forthright about this and not pretending to have expertise he doesnít.

At the end of the day, Iíve mused over zillions of changes to TFT. But when I got down to actually running campaigns, I ran it relatively straight up. I did make playability adjustments - nerfing boomerangs and certain other weapons. I amended certain talents to work more as I envisioned them. But most changes were minor modifications. I did add a defense attribute to one campaign to explicitly allow lightly armored swashbucklers to be viable. It worked fine, but I donít think we used it in later campaigns.

And unlike some, I never saw any need for a HT stat. But as I disclosed, Wizards werenít very popular in my campaigns for some reason. So I never ran into the Conan the Wizard problem.

Anyhow, my point (such as it is) is that we should probably try to help Steve improve TFT, not redesign it. Granted, the distinction between them can be blurry.
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:52 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

Agreed. I think what we are really looking at is minor adjustments, not complete re-design. However, the premise of adding a fourth Attribute does tend to cross more into the "re-design" category than remain in the minor adjustment range! ;-)
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:32 PM   #48
tbeard1999
 
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Agreed. I think what we are really looking at is minor adjustments, not complete re-design. However, the premise of adding a fourth Attribute does tend to cross more into the "re-design" category than remain in the minor adjustment range! ;-)
No question about it. I was genuinely curious as to why HT is the one that folks seem to demand the most. As noted, I can think of another attribute that Iíd rather have (Perception), although I think TFT is fine without it.
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Old 02-17-2018, 03:01 AM   #49
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Sad to say then, but you've never played TFT. I would think some experience playing TFT as-is would be a better basis for arguing for new rules than no experience whatsoever in playing actual TFT.

(I say this with absolutely no intention to be insulting or sound snarky -- I'm simply stating a fact. Likewise, never having worked on a jet engine, I don't think I'd have much basis for urging a "better" way to build one...)
You can say you're trying not to sound snarky but that doesn't mean you've succeeded. To say I've never played TFT is simply ridiculous. I've not played it "pure" and "exactly to the original rules as contained in the published rule books" so I'd accept that, but only that.

I would consider articles and variants published in the Space Gamer as "official" and the 6 attribute system came from such an article and was not my own invention. Therefore I was using an officially sanctioned variant. Did you never read any of the magazines?
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:46 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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You can say you're trying not to sound snarky but that doesn't mean you've succeeded. To say I've never played TFT is simply ridiculous. I've not played it "pure" and "exactly to the original rules as contained in the published rule books" so I'd accept that, but only that.

I would consider articles and variants published in the Space Gamer as "official" and the 6 attribute system came from such an article and was not my own invention. Therefore I was using an officially sanctioned variant. Did you never read any of the magazines?
To many, if you've never played the Rules as Written, you've never played the game.
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