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Old 02-26-2018, 07:47 PM   #71
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by Charles G. View Post
I know, but my point is that a fourth attribute probably should NOT be added at all, and probably not Health (though I admit the proposal for "hero" or "luck" points kind of a thing is worth considering).
I don't disagree with you here -- I'm very reluctant to actually add any additional attributes. Indeed, I answered this thread in the first place in the spirit in which Ty asked the question -- sort of tongue-in-cheek. (But if one was added, I'd still argue for HT for all the reasons I've stated above...) And I too feel that "luck" or "fate" points might be a useful addition, but not as an "attribute;" instead as a pool that the GM can refresh at his/her discretion. It's a bit "gamey," but it adds some real excitement to the game as players spend them to make miraculous saves!

(Heck, maybe that's the whole solution to the priest/theologian thing in the other thread! Maybe what Gods do is provide the occasional "Luck" point to the characters if they do something the God approves of!)
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:13 AM   #72
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Actually, I agree completely with you on exactly that point. Unfortunately, I was jumped on hard here in the various forum threads when I said exactly the same thing you just did.

I think talents should be purchased separately from attributes points and not tied to IQ by number of talents a person can have. Certainly IQ should dictate which talents the character can learn (don't have IQ10? can't learn IQ10 (or above) talents).

To my mind attributes clearly have their own specific advantages, and talents clearly have theirs; if a character chooses to spend his XP developing new skills instead of increasing his basic attributes, then I think he or she ought to be allowed to do precisely that. There isn't any need to hobble either of them by tying them together. Plus it solves attribute bloat/Conan the Wizard quite nicely.
Actually, that solution could kill two or more birds with one stone....

1) Allow purchase of additional Talents post-character creation at some appropriate amount of XP per IQ/Talent point required at creation. However, this is *not* a new attribute raising the XP costs for further improvements, to be clear. The correct XP cost per 'point' of new Talents would have to be extensively playtested.

2) For any other additional attributes we may find ourselves tempted by... additional energy for spellcasting, additional 'fST' usable only for handling fatigue from physical fatigue, luck, etc.... make up new Talents! E.g., 'Extra Mana' might be a leveled Talent with 1 extra energy per level; or 'Will-based Mana' might be a 3 'pt' Talent moving the base for your spell energy to IQ. And so on.

So, my answer to the OP question, technically, would be 'None'. I would not add a fourth attribute, but instead allow purchase of new Talents with XP rather than raised IQ and expand the Talent pool to accommodate anything else.

The idea brought up of basing certain talents on ST or DX even in character creation could also be useful, but would have to be carefully weighted not to bloat starting characters' 'skill' lists too much

Last edited by vitruvian; 02-27-2018 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:59 PM   #73
Jim Kane
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
Each of the original three Attributes had two main functions:

ST governed both weapon use and ability to take damage (health/con).
DX governed hit chance and many skill checks.
IQ governed difficulty of skills to learn and number known.

The system was fairly balanced between the value of the three attributes. By splitting one (ST) into two parts by creating a Health attribute you devalue both ST and Health and imbalance the system. If you're going to split them, then it makes more sense to split all three, thus preserving the relative balance between the attributes.

Although this might seem more complex you're really just assigning a different name and number to an already existing function. As far as monsters go, it's not necessary under normal circumstances to split them, so they can be described just with the original three attributes.

This is a long winded way of saying I don't want a separate Health attribute, unless the other attributes are also split.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE - "Six from Three,... or Leave it Be !"


However, to answer the OP's question:

If I had to "add one attribute" to TFT it would not be a Combat Stat at all, but rather a Game Stat reflecting your character's "Sphere of Influence" (expressed as miles from your fixed base of operations, based on reputation in larger-scale game terms; and as a "Stat" for Reaction Roll on the small scale). Operating as an amalgamated Presence/Charisma/Reputation Rating, reflecting the general impact on your existence upon the NPC game-world-at-large, and upon the reaction/response of everything else around you, TO YOU.

Why is this important in a campaign game? After all, this is not going to make you better at killing Trolls,...

Consider this, as you amass your treasure, construct your stronghold, and hire your men-at-arms, at what point do the NPC's of the game begin to take notice/offense to you?

How many days distant from your keep do others commonly begin hearing rumors about YOU at the tavern?

At what point do other NPC Adventure Parties go on a freebooting spree in the labyrinth under YOUR keep? OR, worse yet, at what point does the Goblin King hire a hit-squad to bring back YOUR head on a stick; and they can do it too, by tracking you through your "SI".

At what point does your "SI" grow so large that you attract a Dragon to your cache of plunder?

Isn't that exactly how the Dwarves in the Hobbit originally drew the attention of Smaug onto themselves and lost their mountain?

At what point does your "SI" become of political notice/threat, or better yet, eclipse and usurp the authority of the local governing ruler?

Isn't that the situation in Robert E. Howard's Conan-tale of: 'The Tower of the Elephant'? Wherein it is actually the evil Sorcerer Yara, who is the real controlling authority in the City-of-Theives, and not the drunkenly impotent and cowardly King Hadradnor?

And, wasn't it The Thorsz "SI" rating that caused you to hear about his "job offer", and caused you to respond, not once, BUT TWICE?!?

And if you feel TFT "gets wonky" at the higher-attribute level of play, consider being able to dump all those EP's into your "SI" stat, rather than spending them on "more brains for Conan, or more muscles for Merlin, or more grace for Gandalf".

Conversely, having a low "SI", isn't going to bother you any more than an IQ-8 Fighter AT LOW LEVELS; but think about when you being to amass that stolen gold,... you need to attract followers to hire, you need to influence other to co-operate with you, you need to be able to get things done on a Mega-mega-mega-megahex level; hence your "SI" rating - or lack thereof.

Having to feed an "SI" attribute will definitely slow down becoming a 3-Stat Superman; and propel your TFT Game to an Epic level of world-drama, and progressively upwards from the lowly bowels of the Melee training arena.

The Character "Sphere of Influence" stat is the springboard to TFT adventure!

So, if I was the "Tzar of TFT", THAT is the stat I would be adding, and exactly where I would be focusing my creative development efforts - in keeping the game strong, viable, dynamic, and ENJOYABLE.

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-03-2018 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 03-04-2018, 03:07 AM   #74
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
ABSOLUTELY AGREE - "Six from Three,... or Leave it Be !"


However, to answer the OP's question:

If I had to "add one attribute" to TFT it would not be a Combat Stat at all, but rather a Game Stat reflecting your character's "Sphere of Influence" (expressed as miles from your fixed base of operations, based on reputation in larger-scale game terms; and as a "Stat" for Reaction Roll on the small scale). Operating as an amalgamated Presence/Charisma/Reputation Rating, reflecting the general impact on your existence upon the NPC game-world-at-large, and upon the reaction/response of everything else around you, TO YOU.

Why is this important in a campaign game? After all, this is not going to make you better at killing Trolls,...

Consider this, as you amass your treasure, construct your stronghold, and hire your men-at-arms, at what point do the NPC's of the game begin to take notice/offense to you?

How many days distant from your keep do others commonly begin hearing rumors about YOU at the tavern?

At what point do other NPC Adventure Parties go on a freebooting spree in the labyrinth under YOUR keep? OR, worse yet, at what point does the Goblin King hire a hit-squad to bring back YOUR head on a stick; and they can do it too, by tracking you through your "SI".

At what point does your "SI" grow so large that you attract a Dragon to your cache of plunder?

Isn't that exactly how the Dwarves in the Hobbit originally drew the attention of Smaug onto themselves and lost their mountain?

At what point does your "SI" become of political notice/threat, or better yet, eclipse and usurp the authority of the local governing ruler?

Isn't that the situation in Robert E. Howard's Conan-tale of: 'The Tower of the Elephant'? Wherein it is actually the evil Sorcerer Yara, who is the real controlling authority in the City-of-Theives, and not the drunkenly impotent and cowardly King Hadradnor?

And, wasn't it The Thorsz "SI" rating that caused you to hear about his "job offer", and caused you to respond, not once, BUT TWICE?!?

And if you feel TFT "gets wonky" at the higher-attribute level of play, consider being able to dump all those EP's into your "SI" stat, rather than spending them on "more brains for Conan, or more muscles for Merlin, or more grace for Gandalf".

Conversely, having a low "SI", isn't going to bother you any more than an IQ-8 Fighter AT LOW LEVELS; but think about when you being to amass that stolen gold,... you need to attract followers to hire, you need to influence other to co-operate with you, you need to be able to get things done on a Mega-mega-mega-megahex level; hence your "SI" rating - or lack thereof.

Having to feed an "SI" attribute will definitely slow down becoming a 3-Stat Superman; and propel your TFT Game to an Epic level of world-drama, and progressively upwards from the lowly bowels of the Melee training arena.

The Character "Sphere of Influence" stat is the springboard to TFT adventure!

So, if I was the "Tzar of TFT", THAT is the stat I would be adding, and exactly where I would be focusing my creative development efforts - in keeping the game strong, viable, dynamic, and ENJOYABLE.
That's a really interesting idea 😊. I did add a new "fourth attribute", Hero Points, which I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread. They were intended as an in-game currency to affect dice rolls. However, it never occurred to me that these points could also be used as a way of gauging the "fame" or reputation of a character. I may have to borrow this. Thank you.
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Old 03-04-2018, 02:41 PM   #75
Jim Kane
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
That's a really interesting idea 😊. I did add a new "fourth attribute", Hero Points, which I mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread. They were intended as an in-game currency to affect dice rolls. However, it never occurred to me that these points could also be used as a way of gauging the "fame" or reputation of a character. I may have to borrow this. Thank you.
mi casa, su casa, Chris.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:38 AM   #76
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
First: the rules already make explicit that ST loss to spellcasting is fatigue, and recovers more quickly, even though a wizard can still die from it. I propose that a wizard's mana score is equal to their IQ.
I'm late to the party, but this comment quoted above really caught my eye.

My group in the 80's implemented exactly this. We called it Mana Valence, or the MV attribute, and set it equal to the wizard's IQ. Spell costs were paid for out of MV instead of ST, and the MV used recovered as if it were fatigue. If a wizard increased IQ, their MV increased accordingly. We used this house rule for over a decade of heavy play, so consider it vetted. It resulted in no imbalance in the overall system.

De-coupling spell casting costs from the ST attribute largely removes the need for any kind of separate health attribute. Players' wizards began putting their EP on additional IQ instead of ST, which does indeed work out to be much more natural feeling, and eliminates the need/temptation to create muscle-bound mages. I owned one PC, a wizard of only ST 8 (but IQ 16) who represented an elderly widower gone off for adventures late in life, and he survived many hard battles and lived to retire gracefully.
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Old 06-26-2019, 01:28 AM   #77
Shoug
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
TFT (& GURPS 1–3) both suffer from "Conan the Spell Caster" syndrome.

That is, The best wizards are as strong as the best warriors.
I consider Muscle Wizards to be an explicit feature of the game. Of course doing magic requires good physical health. I think of a high IQ low ST wizard as being old and learned but withered and tired, and a low IQ high ST wizard to be a young and virile sorcerer or possibly even a monk type character. A high ST and IQ wizard is like Ganondorf, a paragon of the powers of mortals.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:19 AM   #78
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
I'm late to the party, but this comment quoted above really caught my eye.

My group in the 80's implemented exactly this. We called it Mana Valence, or the MV attribute, and set it equal to the wizard's IQ. Spell costs were paid for out of MV instead of ST, and the MV used recovered as if it were fatigue. If a wizard increased IQ, their MV increased accordingly. We used this house rule for over a decade of heavy play, so consider it vetted. It resulted in no imbalance in the overall system.

De-coupling spell casting costs from the ST attribute largely removes the need for any kind of separate health attribute. Players' wizards began putting their EP on additional IQ instead of ST, which does indeed work out to be much more natural feeling, and eliminates the need/temptation to create muscle-bound mages. I owned one PC, a wizard of only ST 8 (but IQ 16) who represented an elderly widower gone off for adventures late in life, and he survived many hard battles and lived to retire gracefully.
Yeah, we did too. I think a lot of us did. This was long before GURPS hit the market with it's Mana rules too. I always thought Mana worked well conceptually, and basing it on IQ (which to us represented how effective the Wizard was at "mastering" the energies involved in using Mana to create magical effects) was perfect.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:10 PM   #79
Shoug
 
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

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Originally Posted by Charles G. View Post
For the record, rather than an HT stat to solve the "Conan the Sorcerer" problem, I would suggest that Wizards be allowed to "double" learn a given spell, perhaps even "triple" learn, which would allow, among potentially other benefits, the ability to cast that spell at reduced cost, either the initial casting cost, maintenance cost (if applicable), or both. One could also make this sort of thing a benefit of having an IQ much higher than the spell's IQ level, which has precedence in the Advanced Wizard rules. One could even combine the above in some fashion. (Note: how this would apply would depend on the type of spell.

Regardless of how it is done, the key advantage is that it becomes much more useful to build up IQ rather than ST. And it is much more elegant than grafting on a new stat to TFT.
I've been toying with the idea of IQ fatigue as a way of handling this type of thing. IQ fatigue would recover as normal fatigue, but it will only recover while you are completely healthy, so it's definitely harder to recover than strength. It also renders your high IQ spells inert to be IQ fatigued below their requirements.

To combine your idea with mine, "double learning" a spell would allow you to fatigue your IQ as a way of powering that spell. You would be called a "Savant" in that spell. Triple learning a spell implies a sorcerous or demonic bloodline, and allows you to to power that spell with IQ fatigue at double efficiency.

I feel like this probably a fair mechanic as it is functionally identical to a powered down version of a Mana stat based on IQ. Instead of annihilating the normal way wizards work, it gives you expanded options.
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Old 06-28-2019, 02:09 AM   #80
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Default Re: The Fourth Attribute...

I put my response in a new thread, "IQ to power spells", in the House Rules section with some suggestions for tweaking this. Click the arrow in the quote to see that:

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This is a neat idea -- I like how it allows for specialization...
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